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	title of this thread your message Here are my thoughts that you just triggered. Design to me is a combination of aesthetics and engineering. Engineering is strictly about how you make something that functions as you wish, regardless of how it looks. Design to me is about integrating engineering of function that can be formalized into the mathmatical language of engineering with aesthetic orchestration through form languages that may, or may not be formalized mathematically. Another distinction between design and engineering is this: the end result of design is always highly subjective; the end result of engineering is highly objective. When a product is engineered, it either works as intended, or does not. The criteria of function are clear and objective. The design of a product entails some function, but the appeal to the consumer of that function is inherently subjective on the part of the consumer. We can objectively engineer a car to perform to certain specifications. We can design that same car to perform to those expectation with the same engineering, but we ultimately cannot know if the design will be accepted by the consumer until the consumer makes subjective judgements about its desirability. I absolutely agree with you that moral ethical values may change to make efficiency and green design and engineering much preferred to other forms of utility, even to the utility of beauty. associated web images (optional) associated web link (optional) your email your password create a forums account \| you forgot your password?