30-Nov-12
Replacing Cord on Danish Side Chairs - 2nd edition
Does anybody know how to begin?
I have all materials and tools for doing it, but I don't know how to arrange the first step.
Are there any tutorials on the net, if so I can't find it.
Thanks in advance and kind regards

posted by marie (GER)
 [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
this link
it's hidden in the other thread.

http://www.thomaspenrose.com/diy_cord01.htm

but do you have the Danish nails?
posted by adamfowler
 [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
First of all...
...do whatever you need to do to the frame to fix that dryness or whatever it is. If it needs oil, do it before you get paper cord on there, otherwise you risk oil stains on the cord.

Second, this is a rush style seat, not the basket weave that is in most of the photos in the original thread. There are no L nails or even nail holes in the rails, that's how I know. If you want to convert it to a basket weave style set, you can---but you need to get the L nails and you should probably pre-drill holes for them.

If you want to proceed with a rush style seat, I like "The Caner's Handbook" if you can get a copy in Germany. If not, there are lots of videos and websites on how to do it. I glanced at a few but don't really know which are the best. (The few that I did see use paper rush, or "fiber" rush, which looks similar to Danish paper cord but is more flexible. Paper cord is harder to weave well than fiber rush but it wears better and is nicer looking.)

Here's one that looked ok:
http://www.toolsprint.com/how-to-weave-a-rush-seat
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
I'd probably start
by taking care of the finish on the rest of the chair.

Edit: You beat me to it, *spanky*!
posted by tktoo
edited on 30-Nov-12 02:17 PM  [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
Marie
I just skimmed through the other thread on this subject and there's some information on weaving the rush style seat there, so you might want to look for those posts in it.

I'm of the opinion that more is more when it comes to reading up on a new technique. Up to a point, anyway.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
Hi...
...and sorry, I didn't notice the link in the first thread, so this thread can be deleted.
Thanks to all of you.
posted by marie (GER)
 [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
Nah, let's keep it---
some readers here have a problem with the bigger threads loading too slowly. We usually start a new one way earlier than this.

For anyone dropping in later, here's the first edition, which is loaded with good info, fun facts, and photos of very handsome chairs:
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm//...
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
30-Nov-12
Agreed.
But the first thread is definitely a keeper.
posted by tktoo
edited on 30-Nov-12 03:25 PM  [edit]
 
01-Dec-12
Where to start
Well I have these chairs with original roping. I can post some pictures of them if you are interested. The are only couple nails used on these. The rope goes all around the seat, little different then Moller.
posted by Cedara
 [edit]
 
01-Dec-12
Sure!
I would love to see photos.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
01-Dec-12
H.W. Klein - Brahmin roping
Here are some pictures


posted by Cedara
edited on 01-Dec-12 07:35 PM  [edit]
 
01-Dec-12
Wow...that looks like a lot...
Wow...that looks like a lot of paper cord for one chair. Also, I imagine keeping the necessary tension is a difficult task.
posted by jesgord (USA)
 [edit]
 
02-Dec-12
that's actually really amazing
thanks for the photos.
posted by adamfowler
 [edit]
 
02-Dec-12
Interesting!
I wonder why they didn't do the basket weave on the underside, too? It would be more work but would take care of any even-tension issues (not that there are any, it'd would just eliminate having to keep that cord evenly taut on the bottom).

edited to add: the good news is that this weave will be way easier for a novice to do than what I thought it should have (the rush seat weave). Yay for that!

Also, the two tacks shown are done on the Moller chairs too, in addition to all the L nails. They just anchor the beginning of the cord and the tail end when done.
posted by *spanky*
edited on 02-Dec-12 02:16 AM  [edit]
 
04-Dec-12
Observation - comparing the weave (Brahmin vs. Moller)
This kind of weave has much more give. I haven't think of it until mentioned here. It also adjusts more when you sit in and stand up, which makes you hear the rope pronouncedly.

I may need to redo all my Chairs in near future (Moller and Brahmin). Which one do you think will be easier?

Thanks for the Replacing Cord on Danish Side Chairs threads, they are big help.
posted by Cedara
edited on 04-Dec-12 02:48 PM  [edit]
 
04-Dec-12
Moller is easier
Cedara: Moller style, with the L nails, is easier, because you don't have to pass a bundle of cord around and around the chair when you do the weft.

Both look nearly identical doing the warp.

But with the weft, Moller style, the cord sits in the box with a hole cut in the top, with the cord coming off the inside of the roll, and you take a bend in the cord, weave it across the chair, catch the bend on the nail, pull tight, catch the cord on the opposite nail, and repeat. You are weaving two lengths of cord at a time this way. And you never have to measure or cut the cord until you finish the weft.
posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
05-Dec-12
I agree, the Mollers
would be easier to do, so start with them.

I think the hardest part is wrapping the rails neatly and as tightly as possible, cramming in those last few wraps at the end. And making sure you don't do any overlaps or twists anywhere, and making yourself undo the weave and fix any thing you miss! I hated having to do that when I first started and in fact I did skip fixing some overlaps on an early chair or two that I still have. Someday I'll redo those chairs. It only shows when you turn it over, but still.

Now I'm in the habit of feeling each wrap as I do it to make sure it's right. Also, I have learned the hard way to rotate the spool of cord as I weave, so that it doesn't get so tightly twisted that it doubles over on itself. I used to spend a lot of time undoing those kinks.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
05-Dec-12
Hi...
...I've got it!!!
I'm as proud as ... but it was a heavy job, first I thought, okay, just an afternoon and it's done, but it took three days and my fingers now are completely "out of commission"!
I know the bottom of the chair is not perfect, but only our cat can see it!





posted by marie (GER)
edited on 05-Dec-12 04:44 PM  [edit]
 
11-Dec-12
I just came across this...
I just came across this video series on youtube, which may be of interest to those doing rush style woven seats on Wegner chairs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az5fjeRdt3A
posted by tchp
edited on 11-Dec-12 08:26 PM  [edit]
 
12-Dec-12
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
12-Dec-12
Wow, great find,
tchp! I am gonna watch all six of those in hopes that i can reweave my Wegner rocker properly, once and for all. Thanks so much for posting the link!
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
24-Jan-13
spacing of L-nails
Hi, I'm not sure if it is appropriate to post on to the end of this thread, but along with part I, it seems to cover a lot of ground.

I am cording a new bench (I made it so there are no existing nail holes), and I'm wondering about the spacing of the L-nails. I borrowed an example of cording from a friend which has the nails spaced at about 1" apart, perhaps a bit more. (It would have been a good idea to sort this out before I designed the bench, I know) The best spacing that I am able to configure is 1-1/8". Can anyone comment on whether this might result in a weave that is too loose? Is there a magic number for this? I am using Danish cord.

Many thanks!

posted by Loutro
 [edit]
 
24-Jan-13
That should work ok.
The nails on the side rails should be much closer, more like 1/2" apart. Most of them have two loops of cord on them and some will have three.

I would just do the front-to-back strands with less slack rather than more. That would help to make up for the slightly wider spacing, I think.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
25-Jan-13
This may go without saying, b...
This may go without saying, but make sure when you do hammer in your nails, that you don't put them in a straight line. I started doing this on the first Moller chair I re-wove and realized that the rail was starting to split. Never made that mistake again.
posted by jesgord (USA)
 [edit]
 
25-Jan-13
Keep in mind that you need an...
Keep in mind that you need an Odd number of nails for the warp strands on the front and back rails (the first strands that are done on a chair or bench). Most Moller dining chairs have either 19 nails for the warp strands, or 17. I do not know why the factory varied the number. If you do a chair with 17, this puts the nails at about 1 inch apart on the front rail. If the chair has 19 nails, it is about 7/8 of an inch between each nail on the front rail. Since you use an odd number of nails for the warp strands, this gives you a nail that lands right in the middle of the rail. So, be sure to start from the center of the rail when laying out where your nails go, to be sure you get one right in the center.

My Moller long bench has nails that are spaced at about 1" apart, although it actually may be a little more than 1". For your bench you will still need to figure it out mathematically so you end up with an odd number of nails.

As spanky said, the nails on the side rails are about 1/2" apart.
posted by tchp
edited on 25-Jan-13 01:04 AM  [edit]
 
25-Jan-13
no nails on the side rails...
Thanks for your response. You mention that the nails on the side rails should be closer together... The sample that I have does not have any nails on the side rails. The start of the cord is tacked, and then it just wraps. Is there something wrong with this?

Thanks

[I apologize if you read this a few moments ago--it looks like I have my answer about the odd number of nails in the intervening posts--thanks!]
posted by Loutro
edited on 25-Jan-13 01:45 AM  [edit]
 
25-Jan-13
If an even number of nails...
If an even number of nails is used for the warp, then yes, it will result in the weft weaving Under the warp on one side of the bench, and Over the warp on the other end of the bench. Most people must find this effect disconcerting, since all the weaving instructions one sees for cord, rattan, etc, makes a point of wanting both sides of the chair, bench, etc., to be the same. It would be especially noticeable on a chair seat if it was not the same on both sides.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
25-Jan-13
Loutro
You can wrap the side rails instead of using nails but you'll have to weave with a finite (cut) length of cord rather than pulling off the spool as you go. This is because you have to pull the entire length around the side rail before weaving it back across the seat. It takes longer and you have to be careful to keep your hank of cord from getting tangled as you weave and wrap, but other than that it is not really any harder to do.

My current method of keeping the cord neat is to do a hank that is about 14-16" long, secured in the middle with a heavy rubber band. I can pull a loop or two out at a time without the whole thing getting messed up. As the hank thins out, I redo the rubber band so that it's snug. Works pretty well if I'm careful. (I have no desire to spend 3/4 of my weaving time undoing tangles, which is what used to happen. Ugh.)
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
02-Mar-13
Looking through an old...
Looking through an old Mobilia for a table ID, I found this. Thought all the chair weavers would enjoy.
posted by jesgord (USA)
 [edit]
 
02-Mar-13
Oh, man.
Those guys have quite the backlog!

Cool pic. Thanks for posting!

posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
02-Mar-13
I wonder what their daily...
I wonder what their daily quota was.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
02-Mar-13
Espen would know,
if he comes back to check this thread. I think he used to work for them, right?
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
12-Apr-13
Acquired Four Moller 78's
Read this thread at least three times. Twice prior to purchasing the chairs. As you can see, they have been upholstered with orange cloth. I believe that these were originally only paper cord or black leather. Only after reading this thread and a few other sources did I feel as if I can take on the task of restoring the chairs. The wife is thinking she would like black paper cord. I have questions for the group:

1) I am pretty sure that these are teak rather than rosewood. Does anyone know what the original finish was on these chairs? (Praying for oil, praying for oil!)

2) Inputs as to black or natural paper cord - let me know what you think. The decor of our kitchen has no bearing.

3) How many danish nails should I purchase?

Purchased Berry's staple tool. Awaiting your input before purchasing the paper cord.

Currently, as the support for the fabric is lacking, the cats love the chairs because they are "hammock-y."

Thanks all.


posted by danawcook
edited on 12-Apr-13 04:48 PM  [edit]
 
12-Apr-13
Nice looking cat
Moller chairs are always an oil finish, which is generally self-evident as there is no coating of varnish on them.

Black cord is quite difficult to come by in the U.S., and expensive. The only supplier I know of, in the UK, told me they no longer ship it to the U.S.

You are saying there is no support under the chair fabric at all? Literally nothing? Are there any pre-existing nail or staple holes from the original upholstery or cord?

posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
12-Apr-13
Four chairs take a...
Four chairs take a surprising number of L-Nails. Also, if this is your first time using them, you'll probably mangle a few; I'd recommend ~100 per chair. You don't want to feel like you have to re-use bent nails because you're running low.

I got mine from Country Seat, and followed *Spanky*'s advice and bought a 2.2lb box (~105 dozen) because I'll be doing more chairs down the road. I had to email them for pricing as it's not listed on their site.

I buy my cord from Frank's Cane and Rush, as their prices are the best I've found. They only sell natural though.

Remember to pre-drill the holes (if they're not already present) and stagger them. Read through the original thread for good info on spacing and whatnot.
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
12-Apr-13
Moller chairs have always had...
Moller chairs have always had either 17 nails in the front and back, or 19 (it has to be an odd number). I do not know that it is critical, but I believe that the inexpensive, thinner diameter cord I have bought from Frank's looks better when you use 19 nails, and the slightly thicker "Danish imported" cord that some of the other suppliers carry looks better with 17.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
12-Apr-13
I think the natural cord woul...
I think the natural cord would be more flattering to the cat.
posted by chelle
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Cat is 17 year old, 7 pound, "Plato"
Thought it was oil. Glad that it is. Easier to maintain. Easier to restore. Phew.

Thank you tchp for the confirmation. There was a sight with black cord, but it is UK. I will inquire but am expecting your information to be true.

It appears that the chair has a burlap webbing straps spanning side to side and front to back. Between it and the orange seat is some batting and then between it and the black linen underside, there is more batting.

I don't intend to do more chairs, but if I can do it and do it well, then it may turn into an "on occasion hobby." 105 dozen may be a bit much though!

If I cannot acquire black cord, Frank's is probably where I will go based on all the other sources named in this thread, etc.

Natural cord with a gray cat - certainly better contrast!

Thanks all. Ready to hear other opinions, thoughts.


posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13

.
posted by Mark
edited on 06-Jun-13 12:31 PM  [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
That appears to be an upholst...
That appears to be an upholstery job that was done at the factory. It has black trim tape which looks like it has the original black painted staples.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Wow, Plato is looking good...
Wow, Plato is looking good for seventeen. He is really a pretty one. Nice chairs, too.
posted by chelle
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Have fun with those...
Have fun with those staples....Its brutal.
posted by jesgord (USA)
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Dying danish cord black?
Frank's supply mentions the possibility of dying Kraft paper fiber rush with water soluble dyes (which they sell). Danish cord is simply three ply Kraft paper as well. So then it would seem that it might be possible to dye it black....?

Anyone ever tried this? Since it is maybe impossible to get in the US, maybe this is an option.
posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Upholstered?
I am clearly no expert. I did not know that these came upholstered originally. I DO NOT have such skills or appropriate equipment.

Input from the group?

1) Get them upholstered (not orange)?

2) Cord them myself?

Thanks. I will have to measure out and place nails (hope I am capable - I am a high school math teacher!).

Thanks everyone. Yes, little Plato is out tiny little one.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
It will cost less if you
convert them to woven seats and do the work yourself. But some purists might advise you to get them upholstered. I think it's ok to convert to woven. They are really nice chairs but they were very mass produced and the same chair can have either woven or upholstered seat. I think there is a little corner detail at each leg post, but it's so minor that I don't think it makes a noticeable difference.

I have done a lot of dyeing, though not of papercord. I do know that the dye will likely not penetrate the entire cord. What this means in the long term, I'm not sure. Maybe nothing. The other thing is you'd have to test the cord first to see if it swells when the dye soaks in. Water causes it to swell and in my experiments it does not shrink completely back to its original diameter when dry. This isn't a big deal when the seat is already woven (which would be the case when cleaning a woven seat with soapy water). But I would not particularly like to dye a woven seat on a chair because I'd worry about dye seeping under whatever I used to mask off the wood. And dyeing the spool of cord wouldn't work if the dye causes the cord to permanently swell!

On the other hand, if the dye is non-water based, maybe you can dye the unwoven cord. I dunno. I love black cord seats and have put a lot of thought into how to get black cord (including dyeing) but in the end I decided it was too much work and/or expense. I like the natural cord nearly as well.

On the side rails the nails will be much closer together and it's important to stagger them as someone else said--just want to make it clear that they should be the same distance apart, but at different heights. I just redid a Moller chair where the original nails were in a straight line and they had split the rail! Maybe a new guy worked on that one? I was very surprised to see it.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
New Guy
Or a "new guy" like the novice I am did not do his homework and seek out knowledgeable folks to get advice before hand!

The wife is coming over to the natural.

Corded. I have an email in for black cord. Maybe the seller would be more apt to ship if there was a decent sized amount. I can ask. If anyone is interested, let me know how much, etc. Again, could be all for naught, but . . .

Thank you, Spanky, for your thoughts.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
IF you manage to find a...
IF you manage to find a source for a bulk order of black cord, I would be interested (depending on price). I don't have anything specific in mind, but I've got several paper cord chairs in my future and I'm sure I'll want to try something new at some point.
Last time I saw pricing, black was ~6X the price of natural. That puts it at ~$30 per chair or more, which can add up if you're doing a set of six or eight.
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Someone on this thread or the
first edition thread had a source and wanted to know if anyone wanted to go in on a big order. So you might want to look for that.

Thirty dollars per chair for cord is still way less than you'd pay someone to either weave a new one or upholster with fabric.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
Pricing of Black per. . .
Link below. The website list is 70 lbs for a coil. A coil is 5 kilos which the site indicates is good for 4 -5 chairs.

That translates to a coil of 11 pounds and is $107 (today per google) for a coil (not including shipping).

That would be $25 plus shipping per chair (round number).

Per that site, the natural was either 50 LBS or 60 LBS English compared to the black at 70 LBS. But, cost of living is generally higher in UK as I understand it.

I suspect that I need to get 5 coils to get 10 pounds of cord from Frank's which is 13.25 each for a total of 66 plus dollars. The black (as of yet, without shipping) is not yet double the cost.

I am awaiting a reply and will let the board know if they are even willing.

again, thank you for all the attention.
http://www.seatweavingsupplies.co.uk/other%20seating%20cordm...
posted by danawcook
edited on 13-Apr-13 10:06 PM  [edit]
 
13-Apr-13
dying danish cord: preliminary test
I just soaked a few feet of danish cord I have laying around (unlaced, from Frank's supply) in water for about 30 minutes. The cord was very thoroughly wet after 30 minutes soaking. Then I set it out in the sun unrolled to dry (takes no time in new mexico desert sun). It appeared slightly thicker when it was dried, but when stretched, it resumed its normal thickness and appears identical to when it went into the bath.

Next step will be to try this with something black. I am thinking fabric dye (RIT), or maybe india ink (watered down?), aniline wood dye, or perhaps a quebracho bark powder tea bath followed by iron sulfate.
posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
14-Apr-13
Interesting!
The stuff I tested never got back to its original diameter. Maybe it was the Baltimore humidity.

Look for a dye that works on cellulose. Rit might not work. You also want something permanent that isn't going to rub off on some sweaty dude's white golf pants, y'know?
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
14-Apr-13

.

posted by Mark
edited on 06-Jun-13 01:13 PM  [edit]
 
14-Apr-13
The problem with a lot of bla...
The problem with a lot of black dyes, RIT in particular, is that they actually behave like a very dark purple color. Anything I ever dyed with black RIT turned out to be a dark purple. Other black dyes also fade under UV light to turn a purple-like color. Like spanky, I had also thought of using dye to make black cord, but decided that it would take a lot of research to do it right, and to choose the best dye for the job. Incidentally, india ink is not really a dye, but is more like a pigment (black particles suspended in a binding medium), so there is danger of it rubbing off on someone's pants.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
14-Apr-13
Fiber reactive dyes are the ones to use
on cellulose, but last time I used them it was recommended to use double the amount to get a true black. The literature at the time (mid-90s?) said that it was hard to get a good black, so...I dunno, seems iffy.

When dyeing cotton, which is cellulose, too, you have to first soak it in Glauber's salt, which is sort of like table salt but not exactly. I think you can also use un-iodized table salt. Then you gradually add the dye to the salt bath and agitate the stuff you are dying so that it dyes evenly. If you don't agitate it, you can end up with uneven areas of dye absorption.

Then you have to set the dye with a mordant--can't remember what it was that I used but it also had to be added gradually while agitating, otherwise you risk blotchiness. And then there was the rinsing to get rid of excess dye that wasn't bonded to the fibers because otherwise it woud bleed onto other stuff in the laundry (not that you'd be laundering black paper cord seats, but see above re: white golf pants).

Pain in the NECK, in other words.

Maybe aniline dyes would work better, I dunno. I used them once on wood but it was a long time ago and I don't remember that process. I don't think it was as involved as fabric dyeing, though.

Ditto on India ink. I used it on a chair once and it took weeks and weeks to stabilize and i think in the end I had to wax the piece to really seal it.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
14-Apr-13
Will try tannic acid and copperas
I think everyone is right that India ink is not right.

RIT might work but maybe I will try that later, and it is a purple black anyway (I didn't realize till recently that if humans could see ultraviolet many things that we see as black would be seen as violet, which is I imagine why black and violet are so closely related)

I don't have any aniline wood dye handy.

But I think I might have been onto something with the quebracho (very high in tannin, used to prep wood for evonizing) and iron sulfate (aka copperas used for greening plant leaves and staining concrete floors) are both variously used in the dying of cloth. Apparently cotton has a real affinity for tannic acid. While I don't have quebracho powder on hand, I do have plenty of black tea which is reaonably high in tannic acid. And I have iron sulfate laying about from staining concrete.

Will report back what happens.

posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
14-Apr-13
Cool factory picture :)
Thats a cool factory picture, I will bring it to work next time and show it, perhaps they recognize some of them.
Just i brief comment on the black cord;
We ship black cord from the factory to our US shop, perhaps you can order from the us shop.
The black cord is stiffer, and a little more rougher on the fingers when you weave.
At Møller we paint the, ehhh, dont know the english word for it, the wood black, so that the bright wood dont shine throug the black cord.
As for the L-tacks, they are mostly used on the benches now, the chairs are regular thin nails (søm/stift) shot with an airgun at an angle, not 90 degrees like the L-tacks.
The Møller 78 with the red upholstery looks in great shape :) Personally I would upholster them for now :)

espen
posted by firkel
edited on 14-Apr-13 11:50 PM  [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
I like the red upholstering ont these
teak mollers, to bad they are sagging.
posted by bj (BE)
 [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
Reupholster . . .
The "burlap" webbing is shot. Seems as if it is "cut" right at the location where it goes from the top inner frame to "seat." The fabric is actually orange. Orange. I am a big fan of orange, but not this and doesn't work in our kitchen at least not now. It will be some time before I get to working on them so maybe they will grow on me.

I doubt that I am up for a reupholstering. Is it easier than weaving? I own a staple gun. Sourcing burlappy webbing . . . a different color yet appropriate designed textile . . . cutting it. I could reuse all the other materials less the black tape.

input?
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
You can use jute webbing on the seats.
It may not look exactly like the original jute webbing but it's essentially the same stuff.

A pneumatic stapler works better on hardwood than an electric staple gun. But even with the best staple gun you might have trouble reusing the same fabric. It will have been trimmed very close to the staples, leaving nothing for you to grip in order to pull it taut before restapling.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
Moller US Contact Info?
Firkel,

Do you happen to have contact information for Moller US? I was going through www.jlm.dk to find the info and was unsuccessful.

Thank you.

posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
Hmmm-
The guy from the online Caning Shop in CA says he is going to have black cord soon! I *think* this is the place that has authentic Danish cord. The cord from Frank's and probably most other US sources is not made in Denmark and is not quite as dense as the Danish-made cord. It's also a tiny bit smaller in diameter. Just a hair.

Their prices for the natural cord are more than double that of Frank's. If you are considering getting some, I would just check with them first about the origin.


http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=220033;arti0...
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
Oh, good news!
That solves my problem. I want to use black on my first attempt. I do have roll of black i picked up in Chinatown a while back. It is craft woven wire wicker so not the same as for chairs. (Similar?) I also have a roll of natural and did a tint test with aniline dispersed in alcohol to avoid any swelling. Also did a few tests with India ink. I have a few different brands. BlackCat brand is nice and warm, not purple. Took the purple out of the aniline black with a few drops of brown.
Letting them air cure at the moment. Would be a total pain in the pants, so good to hear it will be available.

Any time i have used iron sulfate on woodworking projects it has needed a spring thunderstorm amount of rinsing after the color is achieved to prevent the 'iron content' from leaching later. (will turn sweaty pants an unsightly orange).

The cord i have is similar to this...
(it feels like it has a sealer/coating. Would not like it for a chair but the natural is un-coated)
http://www.weddingsbypritchard.com/Wired-paper-cord-BLACK-2l...
posted by rockland
 [edit]
 
15-Apr-13
That is great news
Checked website. No update that is apparent.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
16-Apr-13
Rockland,
I have seen that paper-wrapped wire stuff. I think it might be hard to weave in the Danish pattern. Seems like it would, anyway. I also wonder how the wire would wear against the paper from the inside when sat upon, especially where the cord is also wearing against wood---like along the inside of the front rail. That's where it always starts to fail and I have a feeling wire would hasten the process, maybe?

posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
16-Apr-13
.
I tend to agree about the wire core and how it would wear. And, i have no experience at all with this process. Just surprised that black is available for 'craft' with or without wire, but not for chairs. So hopefully soon.

Just wanted to mention my ink tests. The BlackCat india ink was by fare the best of what i tried. Not sure the binder, but the color was warm, not blue or purple, and it cured a very matt finish and did not seem to change the texture.
I then soaked it in water and placed it on a paper towel...no color bleed at all.

The trans tint, aniline, was a bit tricky to get the proper binder amount. Alcohol thinned i just used a spit of clr shellac. With h2o i used ModernMasters dead-flat varnish. Both fine and did not swell a noticeable amount but the finish/texture did change a bit.

I do not even have a project chair yet! I have way too many chairs but if i come across something i would like to attempt the weaving for a desk chair for my Cado unit desk . (i'd like a red seat, or black)
posted by rockland
 [edit]
 
17-Apr-13
Long, but pricing on UK Unlaced Black cord
The third writing of this post. I am concerned that I am not doing the right thing, but in this day and age . . .

Email from UK Supplier:

Thank you for your enquiry. We do ship materials to the US, but unfortunately the cost of transport can be very high so is usually only worthwhile if the amount ordered is large. For example the cost of sending two reels of black Danish cord to the US would be £62, four rolls would be £91.

However, as an export outside of the EU we can send the materials VAT free, this would mean that a bobbin would cost £58.34 instead of the VAT inclusive price of £70.

I understand that Jim Widess will be stocking black cord soon, so it may be worth contacting him, transportation should be considerably less expensive!

Email from Jim Widess:

Dana, I will only be getting Unlaced Black Danish Cord. I don't believe Laced is made in Black - only unlaced.

I hope this does not cause problems for Jim.

This means for me:

A roll/reel is enough for four to five chairs according to UK website. Website uses COIL and this email uses both reel and roll. I assume (at my own peril) that they are synonymous.

Roll/reel/coil cost and shipping per - £62 = $96
£58.34 = $90
£91 = $140

So, my singular purchase results in $186 which is $46.50 per chair.
Me plus one, $276 which is $39 per chair.
Me plus three, $456 which is $28.50 per chair

All this based on the numbers provided. If there was interest, I would broker and would not up charge on the shipping from CT to elsewhere - just the exact charge per USPS or whatever service you would like. I think we should split the UK shipping evenly. I cannot estimate if there are more than 4 coils as shipping data is not provided. I can accept paypal.

I wrote an email back and clarified that he is using roll/reel/coil synonymously (is that a word?)

Let me know.

If it helps, I am a public school math teacher (so, you can verify employment and location if needed to feel comfortable) and am a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy if that means anything to anyone regarding integrity.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
23-Apr-13
OK.
Clearly, I am on my own OR I made a mistake in my navigation.

Apologies and thank you.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
23-Apr-13
I'd do it but I
weave seats for other people and so far I have never had a request for black cord. I can't afford to invest in stocking it when it not be used for a long time. If it becomes available in the US at a reasonable cost and with domestic shipping rates, then I'll probably go for it, even if it's just to redo my own Møllers.

For now, I'll have to pass, but thanks for researching it and doing all the math!
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
23-Apr-13
I didn't read your post...
I didn't read your post until now. I'm good for a spool if we can get a couple other people as well. If you'd like to contact me outside of the forum, my gmail username is the same as my forum username.
You really ought to confirm the weight of the spools / coils / rolls in question, as I typically see it sold in 2lb coils or 20lb spools. 2lbs is enough to do 2 chairs, maybe. 2 x 2lb coils will definitely do 3 chairs. 20lbs should do more like 15-20 chairs.
*spanky* / tchp - can you confirm my estimations?
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
edited on 23-Apr-13 04:35 PM  [edit]
 
23-Apr-13
I would, but
I haven't kept notes on this and I have a terrible memory when it comes to math. I think you may be right about 4 lbs being enough for 3 chairs. As for the 20 lb spool---I bought two of those awhile back and have done 14 chairs so far and have enough for a few more so you're about right on that--17, maybe?

Era: make that 18 chairs (i forgot about some CH23s) with enough left for at least two more, maybe three.
posted by *spanky*
edited on 24-Apr-13 06:24 AM  [edit]
 
24-Apr-13
Thank you . . .
. . . Spanky. Your email was enough to confirm that the lack of responses indicated a lack of interest. I did not want to assume one way or another. If I came off snarky to anyone - not my intention. All have been very helpful. Awaiting the back cord's arrival in the US before I order. Moved on to refurbishing a Nelson Cigar shade and building it into a pendant for a lofted ceiling - I was given only the shade itself.

After that, working on a Shaw - Walker side chair that, admittedly, needs little work beyond replacement feet.

Thanks again to any/all. When I get to/complete the chairs, will post the results and I will document that learning process/path for any newbies such as myself.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
27-Apr-13
I missed . . .
. . . somehow, missed your post MidCenturyBeehive. I did find your blog (assumption). Nice work. At this point, since others have not shown interest, at $40 per chair and your need for another participant, I will be waiting for Jim Widess' price point and then decide natural or black. If he is unable to source the black prior to July, I will more than likely go with natural and get to work on these over the summer months.

Again, to everyone, thank you for all of the advice, information, education and openness.

Warm regards,

Dana (and Plato)
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
28-Apr-13
Thanks Dana. If I come...
Thanks Dana.
If I come across a project where I need enough quantity to justify an order of black, I'll post here.
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
30-Apr-13
Thanks
I will also let you know if I go ahead and purchase either way so that you have notice. I will post here a week or so ahead of time.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
18-Jun-13
I'm almost embarrassed to post this,
but here goes. First photo is of the seat of my Wegner J16 rocker which I rewove two or three times with the appropriate bigger diameter paper cord. It was so awful each time that I ripped it out and started over but I could never get it even close to square as I worked. Finally I gave up and did it in the more common diameter cord which is used on all the Moller chairs and others.

IT LOOKS SO AWFUL. I knew at the time that it wasn't very good but now that I have a whole lot more experience weaving in general, I'm kind of horrified by it. I wish I could remember what all I was frustrated by when I did it. I do remember that I didn't use a shuttle (huge mistake--HUGE) and that I would try to weave and keep it tight at the same time. And that sometimes I'd go around the wrong way on one corner and would go back later to fix it but would get even more mixed up. I can't believe I didn't just give up.

Anyway. Fast forward (after years of thinking that this type of seat was really, really hard to do--see above for such testimony) to the second photo of a Wishbone I just did. This is after watching the videos that some dear, helpful soul link to on this thread or the first edition, I forget. I will link to them again here.

Turns out there are just a few little tricks you need to know and then it's really not that hard. At least not as long as you are reasonably meticulous and can pull pretty hard to get the tension as tight as possible. My hands are a wreck after a few hours but I'm so happy that I can do it now.

The J16 might be harder just because that bigger diameter cord is less flexible but I'm ready to redo it now. It has to have the bigger cord---see photo with inset of the detail at the spokes. The smaller cord just doesn't cut it.





http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az5fjeRdt3A
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
18-Jun-13
Nicely done. Way to...
Nicely done. Way to persevere!

posted by jesgord (USA)
 [edit]
 
18-Jun-13
Excellent work *spanky*
You've given me hope that the Shaker-style weave can be accomplished. Perfect timing too, as I've got 8 chairs to do in this style this summer. Care to share those few little tricks you learned?
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
19-Jun-13
Thanks!
Check out the set of videos that I linked to at the end of my other post. They are six in all and they're each 10 minutes or so, but do watch all of them. I referred back to a couple of parts of some of them for refreshing my memory.

His instructions on how to wrap the front rail are invaluable. I could not figure out how that was done on mine and I even had another original Wegner chair to look at but without undoing it I just couldn't figure it out. It's just a matter of wrapping one side separately and tacking the end, then wrapping the other side and continuing that one on to weave the whole seat. The direction of the wrap is crucial.

He also shows how to one whole course around the seat with the cord, then tighten and clamp it, then do another and tighten and clamp that. You are never weaving and tightening at the same time.

Also, he has a pretty big shuttle. I was gonna order one from HH Perkins but decided to just make one since I had some lauan plywood (1/4") laying around. Later I saw the one from Perkins and it's TINY. It's probably great for something but on the Wishbone I wanted to load up as much cord as possible on the shuttle to keep from having to do a lot of knots. I will post a photo of the one I made with measurements. It took about 10 minutes to make. My design is different, too---after making one like theirs first and not being happy with it.

The other important tip is how to keep the intersections of strands in an even diagonal to the center. Mine are very crooked in the first photo, not too bad in the second one and they'll be better in the next one.

posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
19-Jun-13
Nice Job - I hope my learning curve . . .
. . . is more generous. I want to get my four Moller's done this summer. Spanky - how long between these efforts? Will check the videos.

MCBeehive - I am probably ready to purchase cord. Wife is back and forth on black - natural.

Therefore, heading towards the natural unless you have a need for black. NOT intending to pressure you at all. Just asking for timing purposes.

Will wait a few days or so before I order.

Dana
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
19-Jun-13

.
posted by Mark
edited on 23-Jun-13 04:18 PM  [edit]
 
19-Jun-13
Oh, pshaw, Aunt Mark!
Danacook, how long between the one that I screwed up and the one that I did well? Mabye 5-6 years? But in between I just gave up and didn't even attempt that kind of seat. The first one I did after watching the videos was the one in the photo. I watched the videos and literally said, "OH! THAT'S how you do it. Duh." And then I did it.

Here's a crude computer drawing of my shuttle after battling my iPhone trying to get the photo off it.

This is not drawn perfectly to scale but it's close. Just do your own drawing according to the measurements and you'll be ok.

The main difference between mine and HH Perkins' is the middle section is a lot longer. The first one I made had a very short midsection but turned out that meant that I ended up with a round ball of cord that was very soon too big around to fit between the front rail of the seat and the rung below it. I could not put much cord on the shuttle at all and had to do more knots than I would like, plus loading up the shuttle is a boring task and I don't want to have to do it every 15 minutes.

So--longer midsection means a long, flat load of cord that will fit between rail and rung. I got almost up to the center back slot on the Wishbone before it ran out.

I did wind the shuttle very neatly, being careful to keep the distribution as even as possible so that i could fit as much on there as possible.

Sand the edges of the lauan--goes without saying! It's very splintery. They don't have to be satin smooth, a rough sanding is ok.

Oh, one other thing---the guy in the video clamps his chair to his work surface as do the guys in the Danish factory. I thought I'd see how mine went without a clamp before i put any time into rigging something up and turns out I did not feel the need for it.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
19-Jun-13
Thanks Spanky!
I reiterate what others have exclaimed: THANKS FOR BEING SELFLESS AND SHARING!
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
19-Jun-13
Thanks but it's really not selfless at all.
I do a few things well and all my life people have said, "oh, I'd love to be able to do that but I just can't!" And then I'd say sure you can, it's not that hard, but they really weren't interested in trying at all. Which I get, I know that not everyone really, truly wants to take the time to make beautiful things with their hands. It's not the be all and end of of human existence. But here on DA I've finally found some people who really ARE interested and are actually following through and I'm getting a lot of satisfaction out of that!

So really, it's quite selfish. Heh.

p.s. plus, i hate to think of anyone passing by a chair that needs a new seat just because they think it's way too hard to do--or that it's a "lost art" which is what people have said to me even as they are watching me weave. IT'S NOT A LOST ART IF I'M DOING IT RIGHT HERE, DUDE.

posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
19-Jun-13

.
posted by Mark
edited on 23-Jun-13 04:29 PM  [edit]
 
19-Jun-13
danawcook-
danawcook-
I *love* the idea of black cord, but currently have no specific need for it; you should not order it for my benefit. Thanks for thinking of me though, and do let me know if you ever decide you just have to have black cord.
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
26-Jun-13
Quantity of cord for a Moller 71
I realized when I recently needed to purchase cord that I didn't know exactly what it takes to do each chair. I thought it would be helpful to document what is needed for each piece of each chair - this evening I finished a Moller 71, here's the info:

Moller 71
Warp strands: 3.2 ounces / 91 grams
Front rail: 2 ounces / 57 grams
Back rail: 2 ounces / 57 grams
Field: 11 ounces / 312 grams
Total for a Moller 71: 18.2 ounces / 517 grams

A coil is about 2 pounds / .9 kilograms, so you can nearly squeeze two chairs out of a single coil, assuming you're accurate when you cut lengths for the warping and rails.

I've got a couple more chairs to do in the coming weeks / months (Mogensen J39 knock-off and Hvidt 316, both of which are shaker style), so I'll post info for those when I have it.
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
26-Jun-13
I've thought about weighing cord
but it does vary a little depending on humidity so I just go by yardage. Though that also tends to vary a little from chair to chair---not sure why, though.

Also, the Danish-made cord is a hair thicker and more dense than the other stuff, so you'd get less yardage from the same weight.

posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
26-Jun-13
Good point
Good point
I went with weight vs. length because I don't have the patience to measure each strand and because the spools are sold by weight. It's not perfect, but it's a decent reference for me, anyway.
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
27-Jun-13
Ha, my method of measuring is to
hold the cord in the vicinity of my nose and pull the strand over as far as I can reach to the right---repeat as needed for as many yards as prescribed. It's an old seamstress trick. Just adjust as necessary for your arm length.

Not extremely precise but it's close enough and it's very quick!
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
15-Oct-13
Need some advice on cleaning up Moller 78 teak finish
I have been delayed. If you scroll up, you will see red Moller 78s with a gray cat perched. I am heading into pulling the seats off of these and weaving them with paper cord, but just before the weaving, want to refinish the exposed wood.

They are teak. I believe that I can use a #0000 steel wool and oil to clean and remove accumulated imperfections and some "human schmutz" that is inevitable. I could also use Murphy's Oil and have done so on a Teak Table. But, I would guess (with zero experience) that these were oiled.

Am I correct? And, what would be the closest modern equivalent of the oil used?

Dana

posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
15-Oct-13
Dana
Get yourself to an Ace Hardware store for some Star-Brite brand teak oil. If you're near a body of water, a boating supply store might also carry it but Ace generally has it.

This brand seems to have way less solvents in it for whatever reason. I like it a lot.

That's all you need to do. The oil loosens the grime and the steel wool helps to buff it away. Wipe the dirty oil off. Apply more oil if the wood is really dry, let sit for 5 minutes, maybe 10, then wipe off. Come back in half an hour or so and buff with a clean, dry cloth. Done.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
15-Oct-13
Thanks again for your shared experience
Thanks, Spanky. Will find it and finally get to work.
posted by danawcook
 [edit]
 
23-Oct-13
Thank you!!
I was fortunate to stumble upon four chairs in my local flea shop that upon inspection and research turned out to be Moller 71's... Poor things had been varnished and modified to fit a piece of plywood in them to hold a tie on cushion (shudder). But even still, I could see the tremendous potential in them.

After a brief look into re-upholstery, I stumbled across these threads and was thrilled that re-cording was such an attainable way to restore them. Given that the nail holes were there, it also made sense to try and bring them back to their original state.

I just wanted to put out a thank you to everyone on this forum for the inspiration and enthusiasm and for sharing all of your experience and suggestions. Particularly tchp for your invaluable link to your photo step by step and to *spanky* for the encouragement to give it a go.

I just finished my first chair last night and am so very happy with the results!

Again, thank you all!
posted by pipa
 [edit]
 
20-Nov-13
I replaced the cord on my fir...
I replaced the cord on my first Moller bench this past weekend. Took quite a lot longer than a chair, that is for sure.

Incidentally, I found a source in the U.S. for black Danish cord. http://www.caneandbasket.com in Los Angeles (I don't think I have seen this source cited on the forum before...) It is sold in 2 lb coils for around $36 each. It is not listed on their website, so you have to call in the order. I just ordered 10 coils after they sent me a sample, so I don't know what their remaining stock is right now.


http://www.caneandbasket.com
posted by tchp
edited on 20-Nov-13 06:22 AM  [edit]
 
20-Nov-13
woohoo! Thanks, tchp!
That's great news!

Your bench looks beautiful. I did one of those once and found it pretty time consuming too.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
20-Nov-13
Agreed, that's a...
Agreed, that's a fine-lookin' bench (best to say that slowly and enunciate). The black cord news is exciting! I'll have to order some as soon as I have a project which warrants it. Thanks!
posted by TheMidCenturyBeehive
 [edit]
 
20-Nov-13
Great job on the bench. I...
Great job on the bench. I bet your hands are a bit sore-that looks like a lot of work.
posted by jesgord (USA)
 [edit]
 
21-Nov-13
Thanks! This time...
Thanks!

This time around I had a chance to try Firkel's good advice (he's the guy who weaves chairs at the Moller factory), and started weaving on one side, then wove back toward the center from the other side. This made fitting in the final weaves a lot easier. This method also works very well for chairs, of course.

You have to find room to do an odd number of weaves, and in the end I had to work hard to fit them all in.



posted by tchp
edited on 21-Nov-13 02:22 AM  [edit]
 
21-Nov-13
I've discovered a new tool.
I'm doing the back of this Wegner CH25 chair and it's woven on both sides which makes it really tough to do the last few rows. Normally I would poke the double weft strand between the warp strands and poke it back up from underneath, but there's even less room than usual to do that.

So, I tried an aluminum crochet hook and voilà! Works great! It's smooth and the hook end is tapered so it's easy to stick between strands. I wish I'd thought of it 20 chairs ago. Oh well.

I am using a US size "J". You could go a size or two bigger but I wouldn't go much smaller. You can get these anywhere that sells yarn--craft stores, fabric stores, yarn shops. Or raid your nearest crocheter's work basket.


posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
21-Nov-13
Beautiful Work
Wow, your bench is amazing... nice work, it is absolutely beautiful!

Makes me wish that I had more projects to weave.
Finished my set of chairs last week and I have to agree that weaving from one side, then the other & meeting in the middle is much easier overall.
posted by pipa
 [edit]
 
06-Jan-14
This morning I wove the first...
This morning I wove the first black cord seat on one of the ten black Moller chairs that I have. I have had the chairs for several years, and really had to wait a long time to find a source for black cord before I could re-do the seats. I figured that a black set of chairs deserved black cord. The end result surpassed my expectations, and I really like them a lot.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
06-Jan-14
Beautiful!
I like natural cord with black frames but black on black is stunning, too!
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
06-Jan-14
Yeah. That is stunning. Wha...
Yeah. That is stunning. What wood is that and how was it ebonized?
posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
06-Jan-14
Stunning is the word!
Very well done.

Best,
Aunt Mark
posted by Mark
 [edit]
 
06-Jan-14
Leif, They were painted at...
Leif,
They were painted at the Moller factory with a brush. Some kind of lacquer I assume.

The wood is oak, possibly, although I can't rule out beech, or even a mixture of different woods. I think all of the wood used is blonde colored, and that there is no teak or other darker wood.
posted by tchp
edited on 07-Jan-14 02:51 AM  [edit]
 
07-Jan-14
Leif, Could you forward me...
Leif,
Could you forward me your email address to tcpenr (at that google email company). I had some info to pass on to you.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
07-Jan-14
Email sent. And I am...
Email sent. And I am surprised that anybody (even Møller) can pull off such a fantastic looking ebonization with a brush and lacquer. It makes me wonder what the trick is. I was more expecting you to say it is an aniline dye or ferric tannate process.
posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
07-Jan-14
They brushed a little additio...
They brushed a little additional paint around the stretchers, so you can see it was brushed on rather than sprayed. The paint did dry very smooth though, and looks more like a sprayed finish in that respect.
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
12-Jan-14
NEW TIP!
I am using one of these plastic things as a shuttle when wrapping rails and I LOVE it. It was $2.98 at Lowe's and came with a free length of polypropelene rope! (haha)

You can load it up with 20-25 yards of cord without it getting too bulging if you wrap really neatly. (Yeah it takes a little longer but it's worth the effort.) It fits easily between the warp strands as you wrap.

The graduated notches at the corners are great for locking the cord in so that it doesn't all come unwound if you drop it. You can toss it around and around the rail without making a huge mess. It's really pretty ideal.





http://www.lowes.com/pd_349236-258-071514999661_0__?product=...
posted by *spanky*
edited on 12-Jan-14 10:54 PM  [edit]
 
14-Jan-14
Spanky, I had to stop by...
Spanky, I had to stop by Lowes on my way home today and got a couple of them. Did you happen to figure out the math for how many we'd need to buy to weave a chair in hot pink poly?
posted by tchp
 [edit]
 
14-Jan-14
Hmm...
42? 19? Something like that.

I'm doing mine in neon green for the warp and pink for the weft. Sort of a plaid pattern. And then I'm going to call it a rare prototype and list it on ebay for $47,000.
posted by *spanky*
 [edit]
 
14-Jan-14
hah! Make sure you point out...
hah! Make sure you point out that it is one continuous length of cord that wraps the entire seat. And mention the names, Wegner, Eames, Vodder, Moller, Juhl, and Nelson in the heading. If you follow these two linguistic enhancements, I think that $47,000 would be far too low a starting point.
posted by leif ericson (USA)
 [edit]
 
29-Jan-14
Can you look at new thread for me?
I'm not sure if you guys get notices of new posts on this thread but - I started a new thread with questions and, since the folks on this one are the people I'm hoping to hear from, I thought I'd post here. The new thread is: "Danish Cord, No Nails...." Would love to hear what you guys think. I'm really scratching my head.
posted by Lausanne
 [edit]
 

Be Modern

An interactive place to share your questions and reflections about
modern & post-modern design.

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