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18-Jul-06 |
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How to tell Fake from Real
without getting into the debate about WHY buy an authorized reissue vs a knock off, does anyone have resources for HOW to tell one from the other? Specifically with the Eames Lounge. A millions copies made - are there characteristics besides the HM label that differentiate? Any sure fire ways to know before purchasing?
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posted by LuciferSum
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18-Jul-06 |
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Hmmm...
> Any sure fire ways to know before purchasing?
Well, the sure-fire way would be to have a manifest showing the chain of ownership, and the original purchase reciept.
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posted by ChrisG
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18-Jul-06 |
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Where is the value?
It's an interesting debate as to where the value is held when the "copy" is of an equal (and occasionally, higher) qulaity to the "original" ...
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posted by Trommel
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18-Jul-06 |
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When copies are superior to the original...
That raises an interesting question: Are there cases where a reproduction is superior to the original?
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posted by Stockton
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18-Jul-06 |
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Corbusier LC2 and LC3 sofas and chairs
...Immediately spring to mind. There are many "knockoffs" of better construction and materials than the Cassina authorized versions...
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posted by decoboy
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18-Jul-06 |
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No no no....
Okay... I understand that there are many questions about repros vs reissues. My question is more about... how does the average person (without being a seasoned collector) figure out if the lounge chair in the flea market (or on Ebay) is an actual Eames chair, or a plycraft, or one of the myriad other copies. Did ALL the Herman Miller lounge chairs have the five star base? Were ALL the HM chairs upholstered in leather? was pleather ever offered? These are the kinds of tips I'm interested in. (and if there are resources I'd love to find them)
Whether a repro is better constructed than the original is an entirely different question.
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posted by LuciferSum
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18-Jul-06 |
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Eames repros
Plycraft lounge chairs are definitely NOT superior in quality to the Eames Lounge Chair.
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posted by Bruce316
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19-Jul-06 |
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a simple answer
know your shit. sorry to be crass, but do your research and know every detail. that's how most people get good deals. know what an item is when others don't. and the only way to do it is to know. look at as many detailed photographs and read about your item of interest. there is no such thing as an authenticity radar.
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posted by whitespike
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19-Jul-06 |
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^^
Crass or not, a good...
^^
Crass or not, a good answer.
I for one never spend more than five hundred dollars for anything I see online, no matter how sure I am it's authentic... the bottom line is, unless you're looking at the piece in person, documents can be faked, closeup photos of labels can be from different pieces... it's a crap shoot.
As far as buying in person goes, know your stuff- that simple.
As far as quality goes, are you concerned with beautiful design and durbaility/usability or beautiful design and a label? If I wanted, say, an Eames lounger and I found an Authentic in terrible shape for a thousand and a high-end knock-off in like-new condition for 500... I'd go with the knock-off.
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posted by decoboy
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19-Jul-06 |
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Sounds like
nobody (so far) is able to specify a few definite details that would identify an Eames lounger from "the competition." I'm no expert; isn't the five-star base always found on the HM product (and may be on some copies as well) ? What about upholstery materials ? Any reliable labelling on the HM ?
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posted by SDR
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19-Jul-06 |
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whitespike is right
there is no such thing as authenticity radar; your own judgment counts. It might take a while to be a collector, but as i am concerned 40% of what i buy is mentionned vintage authentic but infact happens to be knockoffs or reissues or in the manner of. Do not worry that much about it, even auction certified items can be
sold as original but are just copies.
One other thing, if you want to collect true vintage items you have to combine both the detective and the hunter's skills.
The only difference is, that when white siberian tigers will be totally extinguished, you won't go hunting fake ones, this makes a difference with design items: billions of them are design chimeres. Good luck.
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posted by designite
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19-Jul-06 |
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Eames vs. Plycraft & Selig
So far I've bought four Eames lounge chair knockoffs at auction, labeled either Plycraft or Selig or not labeled at all. I've also seen the real thing in shops.
The differences are easy to spot. The knockoffs all have screws and bolts showing on the outside. The armrests are either a single horizontal platform or they have the curved shape of the Eames armrests but are upholstered by just wrapping the leather around to the underside (no welt and no separate piece around the edge).
I think the ottoman is smaller too, but the other differences are so easy to spot that I have never bothered to compare dimensions on the ottomans. I don't even look at the bases, either, though there are differences there.
I've looked at a lot of other knockoffs of various iconic pieces and I've found that the differences are mostly very obvious once you know what to look for. A leg will have a different taper, hardware will show, proportions will be different, upholstery details will differ.
That Hans Wegner folding chair with the woven rattan seat and back has been widely copied. Some were made in Yugoslavia and most done with fiber rush or cord (not rattan) and all with slightly different shaping of the edges of the frames and the handles on the seat. The wood is rarely as nice Wegner's and the finish is usually a glossy lacquer or varnish, not oil.
Just look carefully and pay attention and pretty soon you'll know the real thing well enough to spot the fakes.
Here are a few photos of my chairs:
http://home.comcast.net/~klm3/jans1.jpg
That is a Plycraft chair with the cheap platform armrests. I reupholstered the chair but didn't change their design. Notice the kind of cheese base, too. And visible screws and bolts on the sides.
Next is a Selig chair that I have since reupholstered. It has a heavier base that looks nicer but still has the exposed bolts. Note the really cheezy looking armrests! I redid them in the style of the Eames chair (see the last photo, which is the real thing and which I do not own...yet).
http://home.comcast.net/~klm3/selig1a.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~klm3/selig1arm.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~klm3/whiteeames.jpg
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posted by spanky
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19-Jul-06 |
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and the award goes to..SPANKY!
Thanks so much spanky. I've noticed some of the bolts on some chair arms. I figured some of them might amount to poor repair jobs. The edging around the armrests is a great help, as are the different base styles. With SO MANY Eames imitators out there its hard to know what you're looking at...especially on the web. I've requested the lounge chair book from my library but they havent obtained a copy yet. In the meantime I've been going back over old posts here.
It is very helpful and important to accurately know what you're dealing with. As example - a Plycraft was listed on a local message board as an Eames. When it was pointed out to the seller he dramatically dropped the price. (ethics are not dead)
When I first got into modern design I had NO idea which way was up - the collective experience of this community/message board far supersedes the knowledge I will get just reading books and websites, and I'm really grateful for that.
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posted by LuciferSum
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19-Jul-06 |
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posted by whos that?
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19-Jul-06 |
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i may be wrong but
it seems you don't have as much to worry about when buying vintage knock-offs. so many are so far from original looking it is easy to decifer. i have never personally seen a vintage knock-off that looks even close. the new ones are what's scary. i know my stuff, but i found a copy in new orleans that was manufactured in the last 10 years. i had to ask the store owner if it was herman miller.
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posted by whitespike
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24-Jul-06 |
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No Eames Lounge Has A Tilt Mechanism
That's the easiest way... squat down and look for the spring tilt doohickey thing on the bottom.
If it's there-then it isn't a genuine.
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posted by yuki
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27-Jul-06 |
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posted by LuciferSum
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27-Jul-06 |
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Ha!
That's so funny!
That's the same chair I have, by the way. My current one, I mean.
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posted by spanky
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27-Jul-06 |
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The Aarnio ball chair is ...
The Aarnio ball chair is very annoying and the Eames chaise . I would never buy these now , because of all the copies. Generally the price tells the story or real vs fakes , but snakes try to pass off copies at high prices sometimes......beware
Know your mod
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posted by John B
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14-Aug-06 |
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Please tell me who sells them!
"Corbusier LC2 and LC3 sofas and chairs
...Immediately spring to mind. There are many "knockoffs" of better construction and materials than the Cassina authorized versions..."
posted by decoboy
I don't think that Cassina's quality mathes their prices as I've written in this Forum before.
And they're not interested at all to supply their customers with new better parts than they delivered from the beginning. It's cheaper to buy a new LC2 than to buy new cushions for an old one.
And it's much cheaper to buy a complete new LC2 armchair from another manufacturer than to buy just the covers from Cassina. If they're selling them at all.
I asked their authorised dealer in Stockholm for the price on covers for my old armchairs and haven't got any answer yet - after three months!
So I would surely like to know who makes the "knockoffs" that you are refering to.
Tthank you.
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posted by lege.artis
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15-Aug-06 |
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Eames majik
its funny to read this stuff, you know why? A lot of brain power goes into figuring out....how can one buy a fake piece of functional art to look so close to the real deal? Why do you care? If your buying a fake, buy it because it is a fake and you don't mind that it is fake for better or worse, don't buy it to play Tom Foolery with yourself and your guests. Why by something fake to be looked upon as real? A fake piece trying to look real, is still a fake no matter how you slice it. The only person your fooling is your friends. Your not fooling yourself because you know its fake either way.
This sounds like blabber but its a point.
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posted by Shooter
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15-Aug-06 |
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oh.
To answer your question.
When in doubt, don't buy it unless your 100% sure your going to happy with your purchase, bottom line.
Otherwise, buy new. Let yourself do the "Vintaging."
One can spend all day spouting out construction details To an Eames Lounger down to the fiber and the cow it came off of. Either way, its the Eye of the beholder that has to live with it.
I mean what do you want us to say? There are good ripoffs out there as much as con artists turning tricks.
Get a magnified glass and a fine toothed comb and scrutinize it till you talk yourself out of buying it and move on.
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posted by Shooter
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15-Aug-06 |
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Shooter
I originally posted this question because i hadnt had a lot of experience with the 670 and I wanted to know some tips about purchasing a used one. For example - $500 is a heck of a price for an authentic 670, but in the higher range for a Plycraft version. Something like the tilt mechanism is a great way to know you're dealing with a vintage fake - especially if you havent gotten too close to an authentic Eames chair.
In the end I bought a Plycraft version because it does look nice, was cheap, and is comfortable. And I would never attempt to 'pass' it for the real thing. Thats just deceptive, and will only bring bad karma. :-D
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posted by LuciferSum
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16-Aug-06 |
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hire a consultant
If you enjoy finding the answers yourself, you will find it yourself. And you will realize that the imperfect knowledge of an expert is hard to come by. The alternative is to buy the imperfect knowledge from the experts for 20 - 30% and oila you have the answers, the thing itself and all that time you would have spent asking and searching.
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posted by room606
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16-Aug-06 |
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KARMA.......please give it up!
hey everybody in the world, please stop using "karma" as your new age buzz word to justify or not justify your actions.
if you take a modernist point of view, personal example in action is more a free will choice along with it's consequences. we need to stop atatching "karma", or any religious buzzwords to our actions. i'm sick of it! how the hell did karl rove make it to designaddict!
i am both my actions and thoughts.......and are you!
karma along with karl roveism........RIP
with all due respect, and sorry in advance.
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posted by mario
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18-Aug-06 |
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maybe Im missing something
How is Karl Rove connected to karma?
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posted by whos that?
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19-Aug-06 |
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Mario - I'll see your rant, and raise you an explanation
Some notes about your posting on karma.
1) Im not sure Karl Rove has anything to do with karma, or would even know what the word means.
2) the english language is a broad and complex thing. Specific words are chosen to most adequately convey an idea or concept.
3) Please take the time to research something before blindly ranting away about it. In this case both Karl Rove AND karma.
The idea of karma can best be expressed by the first stanza of the Dhammapada (a book of Buddhist teaching) It simply states: If one speaks or acts with a corrupt mind, suffering follows.
And yes, it is a religious concept, but it is hardly new age. It is also misguided to think of Buddhism as a religion in the same manner as Catholocism or Islam. While Buddhism has deities and demons, its main focus is on the individual and his/her actions. There is no punishment brought down from an angry god - only the suffering caused by misdeed. It is not punishment - only cause and effect- seemingly in line with your 'modernist pov'.
To speak of someone as having bad karma doesnt mean that some unseen GOD will punish them. Karma is the internalization of bad deeds. Example:
" A man accidentally kills a person. He does not tell anyone. The guilt of his action causes him stress. The stress causes him to have a heart attack."
Of course this is an extreme example. Perhaps if I put it in an old fashioned term "what goes around comes around"...thats karma, more or less.
As a general adherent of Bhuddist tenets I did take offense at your comment. Your apology is accepted, in advance.
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posted by LuciferSum
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20-Aug-06 |
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good explaination/defence!
very well articulated points. i now appreciate your point of view, thank you. you must forgive us satanists as we sometimes have a need to kick up the dust a little. i trust no harm was done.
please know i have sufficient insurance in the case we may have a karma crash in the future.
happiness everywhere!
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posted by mario
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