Still more about Nelson Clocks 4
Crikley; the 3rd installment is now over 100.

Here's a new thread; I wonder if Alix et al would consider taking all of the previous clock talk and photos and create a new blog or file somewhere on the forum.

We mustn't lose track of these fabulous photographs....

You can read the previous thread 'more about Nelson clocks 3' here:
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm?7...

something for the image file.
something for the image file.

this is my favorite thread ...
this is my favorite thread It would be nice of the people who own Design Addict
to arrange them so they do not get lost just like Barry said, cause a lot of valuable information has come out of the Nelson clocks, I dont know about you all but i have trouble retreaving archive information,

As of this writing over ...
As of this writing over 400 entries on Nelson clocks
pretty good
I think every one enjoys this thread,
may be Alix could make a column for the BEST OF
Why not Johnny Carson did and did real well....

Jesgord
I would be interested in purchasing what you have for 50 bucks email me at [email protected] and tell me how to get you a check for everything,

that sounds great just ...
that sounds great just let me know,

Interiors Magazine: pictures of clocks
With only a couple of exceptions, I have the entire collection of Interiors magazines from the time period. There is almost always a neat Herman Miller ad and often at least one Howard Miller in each. The problem would be chronicling each of the clock pictures and organizing them. It has been on my "to do" list for years, but you know how that goes.

Anyway, I got the idea for my Kite clock totem from Interiors and first saw the eye clock hung vertically there as well. I prefer the eye clock hung horizontally, but it sometimes is pictured in the catalog vertically. You could even order it with the hole on the other side so that it would hang vertically more easily.

Got the horse clock today
(see above and below)

It's really a wacky clock; porus finish. Nice clock and the hands are great.

...
It's always funny to see the dumbfounded look on regular old antique dealers faces when a few mid-century collectors battle it out for something that the antique dealers thought was "just another retro piece of crap"

LRF, sent you an email about...
LRF, sent you an email about the catalogs

I received this clock ...
I received this clock the other day it looks good on paper but it is really small like 9 inchs across I thought it would be big like the rest
my fault i should have asked,
">

davis
Those clocks that you mentioned are the ones that can be purchased from almost all of the China importers
What is the chance that you can talk to the reps and see if they can come up with some of the older styles between, Barry, Jesse, and My self and several
other people on this forum we could come up with some more of his clocks, I know it is safe to say the Chinese are not paying the Nelson estate, to mass produce those clocks in China as the goods ones are going to a small amount of distributors,
I know the boys in China buy the Vitra clocks strip them down and make there own over in China,
The clocks have not been that mass produced yet!!!, Like your self All world in California, and White in NYC are the only two in the USA selling them and that is good. ( all I know)



Believe it or not they are not popping up every where yet, and that is good cause no one wants the market flooded with Fake nelson clocks, as it ruins the value of what we have, real or not real check it out for us see if we can get some new designs,

Barry
Breathtaking! I gotta say, I love Nelson - but some of the clocks are just plain goofy. That one, however, is really stunning... I'd pay good money for it!

Two more
found these fabulous pix on the internet.

The mesh basket clock I've seen before but not the fabulous red Meridian!

---
--

Lloyd - can you email me?
Hey LRF,

I talked with Barry earlier today - can you email me ?

Thanks.

Barry
that is one great clock you got and very rare, so be glad you own that one, in the yellow, a motor is easy to put in. use 409 to clean it up and call it a day cause it is a real classic .


I missed on ebay folks a Tugenhut Mies chair it went for $2135.00
The dummy who had it listed was asking 3000. on a buy it now .
i was out of town when it was listed,
and some idiot put a cheap bid and the buy it now went away, so sad.
I emailed and said i would buy it now for the original price she listed, but the stoop said no I will have to wait now,
I said this one is to stupid to deal with and I never
bid,
low and behold, the chair went for 2135.00 the chair went for 15,000. at the Wright auction, several years ago.
Dont you hate those folks on ebay who know it all
and wont bend the rules, and at the end of the day
they are the ones who loose out. (please no lectures from non rule benders of what a lousy world we would live in if we did not have rules I have my own wife to remind me on a daily bases thank you),
serves her right . I guess, but i am also to blame cause i get sick and tired of chasing stuff on ebay.
and refused to throw a bid in .... so goes life something else will be around the corner to strike my fancy, ...........right Barry,

Is this a Nelson clock or not?
Anybody have an opinion?

So, LRF
is the clock above a Nelson or not?

yes, you're right about the higher prices, but people seem to be willing to pay them...not me, of course.

October 1962 Interiors ad
Found this....really cool clocks

any one think it is worth...
any one think it is worth the ink to write to Vitra to see if they might consider making some more Nelson clocks, i think we are all getting tired of seeing the 10 out in the marketplace for the last 10 years, I wish new ones would be made,
Then i guess our knock off buddies would not be to far behind, with there great cheap knockoffs,.

just bought this arthur...
just bought this arthur umanoff clock on a buy it now for 125.00
but don't fret friends!!!! another one is listed for 50 bucks starting bid
I saw this one at the show in Palm Springs for 300.00 to me it was a good deal so vintage early 70s heavy wood that is is really hip now as all of the Arthur clocks are now .
if you guys get it for 50.00 your gonna owe me some money for not bidding, goood luck,


I just saw that the dude who listed the other clock
on ebay jumped his opening bid cause he saw my buy it now Now that is what i call creedy,
">

From what i am gathering...
From what i am gathering these clocks designed by Arthur Umanoff, were not as popular as the Irvine Harper clocks, The main reason was the Turned wood, very heavy and a signature of the early 70s .
People did love the whimsical numbers that Umanoff designed and of course his signature orange hands, Distribution back then was mostly in The U.S. but they did make there way over seas. in a limited amount and very few styles offered,
Howard Miller moved on from the heavy turned wood ( i think they are cool) to the more boring injection molded plastic that is still popular today and started putting plastic on the face, called them a 2 ply injection molded clock face and base, mold together, making it almost impossible to change a broken hand,

This was the same problem that the Michael Graves Clocks had in the 90s for Target made in China,
the hands, and movements, broke with no way to fix them, sad to say off to the trash...

Bought this "Nelson-ish" clock today....
After learning about George Nelson's clocks from this thread, I decided I had to pay homage to Nelson by having one of his whimsical designs on my wall. Either a ball type clock or a starbust/sunburst type model. I had my eye on a few different ones, until I came across this one this afternoon at Structube (modern furniture store in Montreal, $39 retail), and decided that's what I wanted. It's obviously "inspired" by the Nelson designs, but I don't think it's just a copy of a George Nelson/Miller clock, but an original design. (The blades are wood, the center dial is brushed steel, the hands are silver color). I don't know, are there a lot of clocks "inspired" by the Nelson clocks (ie. brushed steel center dial), or is it mainly either originals or knockoffs of his designs?

missed
i see everyone missed this one!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=1707...

Thus far...
I've created a spreadsheet containing 221 clocks and variant colors....and those are just the ones that I have actual catalog numbers for.

There's at least another 50+ more which I don't have information on.

So, I was close when I suggested that there were close to 300 clocks designed by the Nelson group and sold by Howard Miller!

Here's an example:
Asterisk clock
2213A Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with white dial and black hands.

2213B Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with black dial and white hands.

2213D Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with turquoise dial and white hands.

2213E Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with yellow dial and black hands.

2213F Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with orange dial and black hands.

There must've been a 2213C version that was discontinued earlier than the others, but so far, I haven't found out that variation yet.

That makes 6 distinct clocks that were the Asterisk!

Not to mention that all of the above were sold as electric corded ($20.00), chronopack (with a plug for direct plug-in) ($20.00) or battery ($30.00).

I'm not counting the power variables, but let's say you wanted all of the Asterisk clocks, you would have 6x3=18 different editions of the Asterisk!

The more research I do, the more fasinating it becomes. I think there were more Nelson clocks than all of the wonderful items designed by Charles and Ray Eames or Florence Knoll or Alvar Aalto!

Including Nelson and his associates, it seems like Nelson was by the far the most prolific.

...and those idiots at Schiffer aren't even slightly interested in publishing the book!

Thus far....(again) COMMENTS?
I've created a spreadsheet containing 221 clocks and variant colors....and those are just the ones that I have actual catalog numbers for.

There's at least another 50+ more which I don't have information on.

So, I was close when I suggested that there were close to 300 clocks designed by the Nelson group and sold by Howard Miller!

Here's an example:
Asterisk clock
2213A Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with white dial and black hands.

2213B Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with black dial and white hands.

2213D Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with turquoise dial and white hands.

2213E Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with yellow dial and black hands.

2213F Metal disk clock, diameter 10", depth 2 1/4" with orange dial and black hands.

There must've been a 2213C version that was discontinued earlier than the others, but so far, I haven't found out that variation yet.

That makes 6 distinct clocks that were the Asterisk!

Not to mention that all of the above were sold as electric corded ($20.00), chronopack (with a plug for direct plug-in) ($20.00) or battery ($30.00).

I'm not counting the power variables, but let's say you wanted all of the Asterisk clocks, you would have 6x3=18 different editions of the Asterisk!

The more research I do, the more fasinating it becomes. I think there were more Nelson clocks than all of the wonderful items designed by Charles and Ray Eames or Florence Knoll or Alvar Aalto!

Including Nelson and his associates, it seems like Nelson was by the far the most prolific.

...and those idiots at Schiffer aren't even slightly interested in publishing the book!

brbeard
your wrong brbeard and Barry is right!!! they were jerky
cause i got the letter from them before Barry did, basically they could have cared less about George nelson and Howard miller and the clocks, feeling that they might not sell that well.
They did not no if we the writers were grade school drop outs or have degrees in English lit from Yale in 1973
The book will be written one way or the other and yes
plenty of publishers out in book land who will publish it,no worry here,

Buy
I Would buy one. How about Taschen, they do a lot of oddball design books.

got my clock this morning...
got my clock this morning this clock ways about 20
lbs
now i see why Howard miller did away with these
Artur Umanoff clocks they weighted a ton!!,
I bet the shipping boys were getting Hernias from lifting wall clocks, any way the turned wood configurations on the clocks are all different , and that makes them cool but just way to heavy, That is more than likely why the price never went through the roof on his clocks
">

I don't know if we should call it
"George Nelson - Beyond Herman Miller", since apparently Nelson had little to do with most of these designs.

Probably should call it

GEORGE NELSON & ASSOCIATES - Design Beyond Herman Miller"
featuring designs by Irving Harper, et al

either way
the everything not herman miller idea is perfect.

I just clipped this ...
I just clipped this from, the Vitra site.



Nelson created classics of modern furniture and interior design like the Coconut Chair (1956), the Marshmallow Sofa (1956), the Ball Clock (1947),


folks you have to feel sorry for George Mulhauser
and Irvin Harper, these two guys deserve a shout out
for g-ds sake,
I just dont understand why they can't put their name for the office of George Nelson,
just makes good sense,

great barry that is t he ...
great barry that is t he way it should be

you did good barry
you did good barry

ask
could you email that contact and see if he has photos of the rek o kut? i have a friend that deals in vintage turntbles , he may have one or be able to source one..

..
i understand he needs an example..
my question is.. does he have a photograph of one.

there are dozens of examples.. i do not know of the actual one they designed..

Regarding who designed what
I think that YCL summed this all up very nicely 3 years ago...



12-Apr-05
Complicated Issue
I must admit that I find all of this revisionism about who designed what quite unsettling. Attribution is a very complicated business, especially in an office like Nelson's. From what I have read, although Nelson delegated a lot of the basic design work on particular projects to particular employees, Nelson retained control over the final design, and selected and edited his employees' work as well. Given his final editorial control and the ultimate "approval or disapproval" role played by Nelson for every product of that office, it does not seem fair to attribute the final design to the employee only.

Under such circumstances, it just seems inaccurate to say that "Ernest Farmer designed the slatted bench" or "Irving Harper designed the ball clock." In my view, the most one can say is that X Object was designed by "George Nelson & Associates," the name of the Nelson design office.

A related issue, even if one disagrees about this, is an evidentiary one: Just how are we folks now, 40-50-60 years later, supposed to determine who designed what? Where's the real evidence that Harper designed the ball clock, apart from Harper's self-serving statements, given that Nelson himself has given a contradictory statement (he claims that the basic design came after a late-night, alcohol-fueled brainstorming session that involved noguchi, buckminster fuller, harper, and nelson himself). I hate to think that the designer who lives the longest -- and thus gets to make self-aggrandizing statements that those unfortunate enough to have died earlier are unable to refute -- gets the credit in our history books.

My 2 cents: Since we will never know, for sure, what the contribution of each individual designer within the Office of George Nelson & Associates is to any particular design, and given that Nelson himself retained ultimate control over a design before its production, all products of that office should simply be attributed to "the Office of George Nelson & Associates".


posted by ycl
[edit]

Once again Barry by ...
Once again Barry by building the data base to all things Nelson we will really find out what he the man designed,
i can understand George Nelson (himself) and George Nelson & associates
but I think it is criminal that these great designers of their day did not get a shred of credit and it has taken 50 years to get a pat on the back and recognized their talents,
to all I say this is only the beginning,
This is not to malign the Great George Nelson, it is to give honor to all who worked for him as his associates and at Herman Miller. something long over due,

Saw that too Barry. ...
Saw that too Barry. Uncertain about it, strange isn't it! That is, attractive, but unusual. Maybe someone did a "hack" job (redesigned) a standard ball clock. Examining it closer...shows that its well crafted, so my vote is legit. Could inquire for a model number.

I've resigned from making a purchase attempt..I've come to terms with that. Not because of questionable orgin, but every Nelson groupie has likely seen it by now.

You're right Swank...the...
You're right Swank...the squarish quality is awkward. I'm trying to grasp a more oval quality, but still feeling the contradiction. I believe the standard ball clock is far superior in presentation. This piece does win the quirkyness award, and I like quirky... sometimes.

I really like the cut face of the wood balls themselves.

as you know barry i had ...
as you know barry i had a bid on that clock but was real
glad you got it cause i was worried i was gonna have to take it.,
those looked like bad chips /cracks to me and for your sake i hope they can be fixed, other wise, it might not look to good.

Lloyd
I did not know I was bidding against you. With this new hiding of bidders eBay deal, I can't always be sure.

Are you the guy selling those two clocks from Tulsa? I thought you might be.

I think I get the clock to look decent....certainly better than it looks now and I'm so intrigues by it because of how far out from the wall it is.

Attribution
I'm of two minds about the attribution. As posted many times before it's perfectly within the legal rights of Nelson Associates, or George Nelson to claim all attributions of those that worked in his company. Like I've said before - no one knows who designed the iPod; only that its an Apple product.

However, I do find it interesting to see how things like Mulhauser's plycraft lounge chairs relate to the Coconut chair and the likes. I wonder if a good compromise might be something like what appears in Eames Design. Each project is chronicled by year, with the names of all those working in the Eames office at the time. It's not perfect - but as you've seen, many of the records about who did what are lost. All that is left are a few folks left who (in the case of Harper) are conveniently claiming authorship. (I'm not saying he didnt do so - just convenient that he is still alive to claim so)

An instance of why this is a murky area can be found in Bertoia and Eames. Bertoia is attributed to designing the metal spine/legs of the DCM, the lack of recognition for which he supposedly left the Eames office. Now, did he one day say to Charles: maybe we should have a metal frame? Or did Charles initiate the idea, and Bertoia carried it out? Or was it someone at Herman Miller's idea? Or did Charles and Bertoia work solve the problems together? We'll never know for certain.

Just like we cannot truly extract which bits Ray and Charles did together we cannot assign sole attribution to one person or another in Nelson's office. Nelson did not do all of the work himself - this is fact. But, like an orchestra conductor, the captain of a ship, or the coach of a football team Nelson had his hand in each project George Nelson Associates produced. Everything, from the clocks to the coconut, is inextricably linked to his name.

Skeptical
Barry, I'd be a little more skeptical. It could be that whomever owned the house added Nelson hands onto an existing clock in a similar style sometime during their life. It could be that the person selling it did that now. (I know what you're thinking: A dishonest seller on eBay? Never!) lol. Still, its a fun shape, and if it IS real, then it could be an awesome find :)

Of Any Interest ?
Saw this on eBay UK

Is it of any interest to you guys ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=29...

OK
OK! just though I'd ask
I'm totaly ignorant on this subject

A Whirlygig and a Clocknik.....
A couple I haven't seen before at Wright.



http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/345-George-Nelson-AssociatW...

you have that speed dial...
you have that speed dial on the nelson clocks

You did make a good ...
You did make a good buy !! , one was on ebay last month and it went for 199., so you saved 75 bucks.
now you need to buy that wood clock, It has not moved from 1 cent, it is a great deal,
i bought it at the Palm Springs show for 150.00 and did not bat a eye, it is in the original nelson series, before Umanhoff came to work.
sometimes you make a good deal. some times you get slammed...
I saw the guy that you bought your other Nelson clock for 256.00 today, he paid over 300.00 for it , so you have had two good scores this week.
i bet you are up to as many as me now, i have 52 and growing, all cataloged all say Howard miller
4 are vitra 1 is from all world, (the kite) but that is o.k.
i wish that guy would get some more clocks in stock , i have called several times and his help knows from nothing !!! like when a new shipment is coming.

your well on your way to...
your well on your way to some great ones. I think when you fix up that damaged wood one, it will be great ;
I have a feeling that that one might be kinda rare, as i have not seen that one floating around.
if it was in pristine shape
i bet it would have bought big bucks,

This thread continues in 'Still more about Nelson Clocks 5'
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm//...