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16-Jul-08 |
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Aalto 60 stools..
How does one tell if they are genuine or knock off? I recently bought a stool, but it has no stamp underneath - The leg ends are tapered at the end, and both leg/top are made up of bent ply. Any help would be much appreciated! (I'll post a pic later).
I mainly buy/sell American design so don't have any experience with Aalto up until now.
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posted by NickR60
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16-Jul-08 |
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Sounds inauthentic.
Aalto ...
Sounds inauthentic.
Aalto stools are not actually made of ply. The top is solid beech, with a veneer strip encircling it. The legs are solid as well. At the bend in the leg the wood has been sawn into strips and bent (like ply) - but this treatment is only at the bends, the rest of the leg is solid.
Also - I've not seen tapered legs on the 60 stool. I've seen some fan shaped legs on other Aalto pieces. Tapering sounds a bit more like something Thonet would do.
Incidentally - Below is Artek's booth at the Milan Furniture Fair to celebrate the 60 Stool's 75th birthday.
http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/04/16/artek-in-milan-stool-60/...
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posted by LuciferSum
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16-Jul-08 |
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posted by robert1960
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16-Jul-08 |
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posted by NickR60
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16-Jul-08 |
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Functional and affordable -
These appear to be from Target or Ikea. They retail for $15-20.
I have several and find them quite useful for all sorts of small tasks.
I find the stools with laminate tops make great side tables and pull double duty as seating in a pinch.
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posted by bustelo
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16-Jul-08 |
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Yes
I think they are IKEA ones too
(we don't have Target here ..but all my towels and teatowels are from there ;))
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posted by robert1960
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16-Jul-08 |
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Looks exactly like mine from...
Looks exactly like mine from target. Fun stool, though.
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posted by whitespike
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17-Jul-08 |
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Thanks for the help so far....
Thanks for the help so far. I bought the stools on ebay for £60 the pair ($120.00) the description was misleading i.e saying they were Aalto, and the images not great so I thought they were right. I have since complained to the seller, as these retail for £7.99 each in Ikea! And he has written back telling me they are made by Artek which upon inspection are not (99% sure of this). Not a happy situation thus far..
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posted by NickR60
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17-Jul-08 |
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Nick
Did you pay paypal ?
This would a deserving case for 'item significantly not as described' in my opinion
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posted by robert1960
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17-Jul-08 |
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posted by NickR60
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18-Jul-08 |
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How much would a pair of "authentic" marked Aalto stools go for?
If the answer is significantly more than you paid, then I wonder how it's fair for you to complain to the seller that the repros can be had from Target for less than you paid -- the starting bid was below the Target price, so it was the bidders who brought the price up. Why is that the fault of the seller?
I read the ad but did not see them claiming them to be "vintage" or "authentic" or "original" or marked or even who the manufacturer is. All that was said is that the stools were designed by Aalto - and is that true or not? If you cannot tell the difference except for a label, then I'm guessing they are certainly of the Aalto design.
Maybe the seller does not know the fine details of which manufacturers produced "authentic" Aalto stools, or what the label might look like. I don't understand how the seller misrepresented this item. You know how many people put "Eames chair" in their ebay ads, but clearly don't mean that the chair is an original Eames -- check out how all of the Plycraft lounges are listed. Honestly, some people don't even know the difference and they think they have an actual "Eames" chair. It's the buyer who has to beware, as the old saying goes.
If I had seen that ad, I don't think I would have thought I was bidding on an authentic Aalto stool - the use of the phrase "originally designed by Aalto" was the biggest tipoff I think. Plus, no maker's marks were noted in the ad, and none were evident in the photos.
Is it the wood that was misrepresented? It said "birch ply" - is that what the stool is? If not, then yes, you do have a legit complaint I think.
That's just my take, as a novice - I'm still trying to understand how all of the new/knockoffs/repros/etc fit into the bigger picture.
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posted by dashes
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18-Jul-08 |
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ART DECO ALVAR AALTO 4 LEG STOOL TYPE 60 IN BIRCH PLY
nope
File for 'item significantly not a represented' in paypal
I would, the listing is misleading, and deceitful
The price is irrelevant, it is an auction
I would ask for a refund first though, then file with Paypal if they refuse.
eBay changed the system to make the buyer king, even though the it's the sellers swell their coffers..you may as well use it..
He can't neg you!
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posted by robert1960
edited on 18-Jul-08 11:37 AM [edit]
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18-Jul-08 |
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I would imagine that it is an...
I would imagine that it is an honest mistake on the part of the seller although of course he/she should have satisfied themselves that it was authentic before describing it so. The price should perhaps have set alarm bells ringing - I would contact the seller to inform them of their mistake and request (then demand) a refund. Incidentally quite a lot of Aalto furniture is not marked, especially early pieces where the importers labels (Finmar in the UK) were routinely removed by retailers some of whom would even replace them with their own store labels.
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posted by paulanna
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18-Jul-08 |
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Doubtful
It is very doubtful that this seller "honestly" mislabeled the stools. The copy of the listing very carefully skirts any claims that they are original. Its classic parsing of words that may leave the seller in the right.
Your strongest course of action is that the auction title says "alvar aalto stool #60". The fact that he knows the number designation of the stools is a sign that he's done some research. His eBay store lists many various 'antique' type things - he's beyond just being an amateur seller.
In fairness to the seller, the top of the stool reads as being ply in the images. That should be a warning bell to any buyer.
However, I would raise holy hell about this. What you paid is WAY too much for a coupla pieces o shite made in China.
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posted by LuciferSum
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18-Jul-08 |
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Thanks for the replies. The...
Thanks for the replies. The seller won't and doesn't want to give me a refund, and even emailed me a link to Artek's site claiming that is the stool I have bought. I'm in the process of complaining to eBay/PayPal and shall let you know how I get on. The seller in my eyes is a conman and knows exactly what he is doing! The email replies from him have been nothing short of a joke.
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posted by NickR60
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18-Jul-08 |
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CC
If you paid with credit card via PayPal, you can also dispute the charge with the credit card company as an additional layer of protection.
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posted by woodywood
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18-Jul-08 |
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Ok maybe not such an honest...
Ok maybe not such an honest mistake! Its really quite unlike me to think the better of someone.... I doubt you'll have any problems getting a refund - if he's got any sense the seller should will do it, if not Paypal will. I imagine Ebay are quite sensitive about fakes at the moment!!
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posted by paulanna
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18-Jul-08 |
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Classic SNAD
Hang on to the e-mails from the seller.
And don't be angry. (or just a little bit for not asking here before you bid:)
Who knows. The seller may have been fooled as well and is passing it on
and hopping the buyer doesn't notice the difference. Or just an antique
collector confused by the whole MCM gold rush.
Alvar Aalto's design is difficult to describe to a non-woodworker.
"The leg, which he dubed the "bent-knee",...He solved the problem not by bending a solid piece of wood at a ninety-degree angle but by forming a
sandwich of thin laminates that could be easily bent. The stool leg was a
solid, straight piece of birch: just below where the bend was to be it was
backsawn to make it pliable. A piece made of identical wide laminates was
then glued onto the solid leg. This end of the leg was then bent and attached
to the underside of the stool top."
(while all plywood is made from laminated wood, that is, pieces that have
been glued together. not all laminated wood is plywood. Plywood is made
from veneers, each of which is laminated with the grain facing perpendicular
to the grain of the adjacent sheet.)
Judging by some sites exclaiming "Target has Alto Aavar stools for 14.99! eurika,
and 1/10th the price!"
(spelling intentional), the difference is quite clear. It isn't even a reproduction.
It's a knock-off.
http://www.artek.fi/en/about_3.html
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posted by rockland
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18-Jul-08 |
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posted by rockland
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18-Jul-08 |
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Wow.
You can find the original for less.
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posted by woodywood
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19-Jul-08 |
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nick
you do have a case and support.
i support it!. (ask away)
It is just a pain to go through it. But a worthy cause.
In the end the anger will subside.
E-bay is a risk. Homework is key. I think you know now what mistake you
made but that is not a mistake to take as a lesson. Fight it!
I just finished a dispute.
My message from e-bay this morning...
"Thank you for taking the time to report this listing for violation of
our Excessive Shipping Charges policy.
We are working hard to combat the practice of excessive shipping charges
on eBay and very much appreciate your help in identifying sellers who
you believe are charging excessively for shipping. Please continue to
report these types of listings to us. We can only clean up this problem
by working together."
It is a form letter no doubt. I've been sent it 5 times about the same issue.
But finally the strange battle ended in a poof.
After 60 days it has all vanished. E-bay erased the entire issue. (phew!)
I have also asked sellers questions for more information and have been
challenged. Or ignored.
I report misleading information only after asking the seller to
correct it. I repeatedly get e-bay support.
(i'm an itty-bitty e-bayer. 10-20 things a year.-Things that are key to the
architecture of my home. I just don't like the scammers)
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posted by rockland
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19-Jul-08 |
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Other than Altek,
the only company capable of producing this kind of quality bent wood is Thonet, and the similar looking stools Thonet made were also designed by Alver Aalto.
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posted by barrympls
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19-Jul-08 |
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No they weren't
No they weren't
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posted by paulanna
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19-Jul-08 |
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If you follow the link below...
If you follow the link below you can find a detailed description, as well as a high-res image of the authentic stool. The image is clearly a different stool than the Ikea one you got. Email both to the seller and ebay, especially if the seller sent you to Artek's web page to begin with.
Be agressive, but polite, about the dispute. You got taken, and its a learning experience, but you should also learn how to protect yourself as well.
http://www.artek.fi/en/products.html?Id=60&P=1
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posted by LuciferSum
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19-Jul-08 |
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No, they're weren't???
Then what are these? (they say Thonet underneath)
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posted by barrympls
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19-Jul-08 |
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Gasp!
could it be that two people came up with the same radically simple design at the same time!? Never! (that was playful humor, btw - not sarcasm)
Thonet, like Plycraft, had many designs that were, shall we say, similar, to designs by other companies. It seems unlikely that Aalto would work for a company outside of the one he himself founded, especially at such a later date. The Thonet stools have plastic tops - indicating they were around much later than the wooden 60 stools of 1933.
Also, Thonet's website doesnt list Aalto amongst the designers - but they do include other famous people; Breuer & Mies amongst them.
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posted by LuciferSum
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19-Jul-08 |
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They are 4 legged stools with...
They are 4 legged stools with a passing resemblance to an earlier Aalto design....thats all!!! The only connection Aalto had with Thonet is that he entered a competition run by Thonet in the 1920s.....and didn't win (the stool was several years in the future at the time). You'll notice that the legs are plywood not solid, its proportionally wrong, the seat does not have the veneer band and the legs are tapered. Not Aalto. The only designs that are 'Aalto' but 'not Aalto' are certain designs Artek - Pascoe released to the US market in the 50s where under their own volition they 'improved' a number of his designs including funnily enough some leg tapering! Disgusted at such a liberty being taken, Aalto severed his connection with them.
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posted by paulanna
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20-Jul-08 |
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Well, I got those red plastic topped
stools on eBay for not much.....knowing full well that they were Thonet.
I use 'em as occasional tables in the living room and they look nice. I also sit on them as a stool too.
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posted by barrympls
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