sounds like...........

...... the one from hume is more accurate.

wait a minute........

are you actually going to install two different types of mounts on the same chair ?

bad idea.

you might also check with graham mancha in the u.k. i was under the impression he had either N.O.S. or O.E.M. mounts.

you don't......

want the screw to actually go through the mount and enter the wood........ definitely not, and if it does it is all wrong.

so, you bought 3 shock-mounts while you only needed 1 ?

this thread is making less and less sense with each new revelation....

Yea,Chewy,but truth be told,I have more than one Eames chair
and no telling when I'll need new mounts in the future,so...

--Exactly ! :)
One never knows when mid-century disaster will strike!

Seek a professional- That's my advice!
I'm in the middle of shock mount Hell presently.The darned things are a B*TCH to remove unless you're handy with a Dremel or something!

eames lounge chair
I have a Herman Miller Eams chair that I can't part with. It was given to me as a gift. Recently the (seamingly) leather hinges that connect the back to the seat have dry rottod. I have tried to glue the one that is no longer any good to no avail. I would like to have the chair repaired. In contacting Herman Miller, they quoted me $1900 per arm replacement. I think the entire chair is only worth $2800 retail, and the arms are in great condition otherwise. does someone have any inormation on a reputable repair person? I miss siting in the chair every evening as I looked forward to it. I'll send it anywhere although I live in Philadelphia. Thanx, Marice Tannenbaum
mark456

routered shock mount surface
I've never seen routered mounting surfaces on a 670 chair. It is, however, the standard on the "potato chip" chairs.

Poach,which version of Scotch Weld?
There's Green,Tan,and Opaque,I believe.

2 oz size
Would be more than enough,as you don't need tons of it,just make sure there's enough to form a bead around the shock mount,so it doesn't travel

Thanks Poach...
I've ordered my shockmounts and will be ready to go soon. I know it is an ambitious project as I will be fabricating my own lower back shell as well! I'm going to laminate my own bent plywood using a double-sided form (male and female components) and then cut out the shape from a template I have made from the original. Hopefully, if all goes well, I'll have some nice pics to post in the coming months!

Homemade shell?
Wow, I want to see this, too.

I'm a bit skeptical about the male / female molds. Non-production molded plywood components are typically formed with a single-sided mold and a vacuum bag. The vacuum bag eliminates pressure variations that can result from imperfections in a 2-sided mold.

Please document the process, and post to the forum.

Eames Lounge Shock Mount Failure
Hello Special K Product.

How are the ebay sales going for your Eames ES670 lounge chair shock mounts with 'shear' plate.
Are all your customers happy?
No complaints right.
Are they all aware that you are offering a warranty for as long as they own the chair (About 50 years usually)
Does that mean that if their chair should break and fracture due to installing your inferior parts you will repair the damage for free or you will return their 20 bucks for the failed part and leave them up a creek with a polyurethane paddle.
Keep up the fantastic eBay sales as we love a bit of friendly competition at Humemodern.
**Your customers become our customers at the end of the day.**

(edited: no advertising on the forum, thank you)

LRF
if you don't want to read "bullshit stories" than stop reading.

ad forum?
Patrick and Alix-I agree!I think many MCM enthusiasts have praised Alfie's work,as ,no doubt,it is indeed superlative.However,whenever and wherever the subject of diy Eames lounge repairs comes up,here's Alfie with his shameless self promotion as well as this Peter Triestman who makes and touts his wooden(??)shock mounts.In fact ,many similar forums have turned into a war-like exchange of posts by the two,who also eschew the Special K shock mount product.Very disconcerting!
I had delved into the diy aspect of this because I am confident of my skills and simply would rather make a wholehearted attempt to repair the one shock mount that had become cleanly detached.I simply felt that the effort expended would be less than that of disassembly and shipping,not to mention repair costs.Furthermore,PC-7 is less than $10.00 and though is not the perfect factory method of attachment,provides what I feel is a superior bond with the least muss and fuss.I think DA members are well aware of their options when it comes to this subject,and do not need to have the professional restoration people chime in with their contact info ad nauseum.

FurnDesignStuden
You have a lot to learn kid!!!!!!!

scotch wild 1838
Poach, I am having trouble getting this epoxy. I haven't found it locally in San Antonio,TX and efforts to buy on line have gotten insane. The adhesive is about $37 for 2 oz
and thats ok but most onlines wont take less than a $50 order. I only have one 670 and believe one package would do fine. However to get it, I am looking at buyin 2 packs plus shipping which ends up costing approx. $75. What was your source and would they be receptive to my needs.

Thanks, guitar.

Scotchweld 1838
Guitar,

I picked up my scotchweld kit more than 10 years ago at an industrial rubber supply company. It's not supposed to be for sale to the public, so I had to convince them that I represented a business with a legitimate need for the stuff. Even then, I think it was about $35 for the kit.

You're right about the online sales. I did some searching of my own, and they don't make it easy for DIY-ers to get 1838. You might try calling one of these distributors directly. The direct order line might not have the same $50 minimum that the online page has. Or you might find a sympathetic order entry person on the other end.

Good luck

Personally,I prefer the PC7
Easy to find,inexpensive,easy to work with,sticks amazingly, and hardens like steel!

Shotck mount alternatives
Peter, I think you're fighting two distinct battles in convincing people to use your shock mount alternative.

First, there are the purists, wanting to maintain their chairs in original condition, as-intended by the designer. These are the sort who run bias ply tires on their vintage cars, because it's "correct" for the car. You're probably not going to change a lot of minds here.

For everyone else (myself included), I think the skepticism stems from concern that our chairs will behave differently than expected, or that the your system will have its own problems over time.

If I understand your description correctly, it sounds like the job of the shock mounts (allowing flex in the chair back) is given to elastomeric bushings that are inserted into a wooden puck. This seems like a reasonable way to go, as long as the bushings deflect at the same rate as the original shock mounts. Have you made any tests to see how the two compare? I'd also be a bit concerned that since the forces are concentrated in a much smaller area, that the bushings would show "creep" after a few years, and the chair back would sag. Are the bushings something that can be easily replaced if or when necessary?

As the battle wages on for...
As the battle wages on for shock-mount supremacy... Those that neglect customers and potential customers will lose out.

have heard of Alfie the...
have heard of Alfie the longest. But a few years ago I emailed twice about recovering an Eames sofa - never got a reply. I have to say that put a bad taste in my mouth - although he repaired a friend's 670 beautifully.

Whitespike Sofa
Do you still need the sofa done?
I'm sure if you filled out an estimate request with us it was replied to.
The response might have been hit with your spam filter.
Send us an e-mail at anytime and i will be sure to send you a quote.
You know us we are always there to please.

(edited by Design Addict - no advertising please)

Poach...do you do repairs for others (like myself ;)
Are you in business.

I'm in Los Angeles Area.

Alfi-I just realized that you are from HUME, so I did send in a form today asking for an estimate...thanks

Richard Jacobson
adhddoc
but you can call me Jake.

Shock Mount Observations and Comments
Having recently experienced my 11-year-old Eames 670 lounge chair coming apart on me at the moment of a relaxing sit-down, I've followed with great interest the discussion between those seeking help and those offering comments and repair services. My shock mount failure thankfully did not result in damage to either the opposite side, seat-shell or lower back shell plywood ears. After complete disassembly of the chair and a close examination of the one loose shock mount and its slightly recessed, routed fixation point on the seat shell, I'd like to offer my own observations and conclusions, some of which may be at odds with those who appear to have developed definitive opinions about the best repair approach.

I agree with and support Poach?s 7/6/09 shock mount post and, with all due respect to Peter Triestman's many posts across the Eames chair blogosphere, take issue with his 11.16.09 post that failure is due to "neoprene oxidizing and the neoprene sticking to the glue, still on the chair. It is usually not the glue failing and the mount leaves a thin black layer on the chair" [sic].

The shock mount assembly, in my case anyway, has a finely brushed steel face at the surface that bonds with the wood seat shell, and is set into a less than close-fitting, routed recess of only about 1/8th, it?s quite clear that the primary bonding surface is not the neoprene portion of the shock mount at all but the brushed steel shock mount plate (with two drilled holes that further act as adhesive "keys"). This is simply logical as there is insufficient neoprene surface exposed to wood to allow any kind of meaningful bond. Those who attest otherwise must have a different shock mount configuration. My chair presented a clean adhesive failure, leaving the recess coated with adhesive, the male shock mount plate completely devoid of any adhesive and the neoprene portion of the shock mount fully intact. There is no apparent ?oxidation? of the neoprene, but I'll grant that is may be due to the relative youth of my chair.

In view of the above, the $800,+shipping fee I?ve been quoted to replace Eames designed/Herman Miller fabricated components with some other arrangement of non-original materials seems both excessively expensive and ill-advised. Poach has it right. I plan to thoroughly clean both mating surfaces and re-glue. This is not rocket science for anyone who has some skills. Adhesives, especially two part epoxy formulations, have advanced considerably since this chair design was first conceived.

PC-7 (dries grey) is a good product. Loctite 83200 which dries white and has a shear strength of 1750psi - far beyond any stresses a lounge chair fitting could ever be subjected to in normal use. There are many others. Most two-component epoxies are designed for compatibility with many materials. With properly prepared surfaces such as those under discussion, the precise selection is less important than preparation and glue-up procedures.

First time I sat on my restored Eames 670 Lounge Chair today...
...its a rare 1960's edition in Brazilian Rosewood, as confirmed by G Mancha UK.

Unfortunately, I used Special K's "fabulous" shock mount and mounting kit.

I regret to inform that the glue failed after leaning back the 2nd time. Luckily, I was weary as it made a creaking noise and I shot back up IMMEDIATELY!!!! Saving the ply shell from fracturing - thank god as it has just had a repair there and rosewood spliced into it at quite an expense! Never mind the expense, if my beautiful chair had broken again, I doubt I would be able to repair where it fractured again, leaving me a very sad. And no amount of insurance compensation would rectify this!

I will be removing this junk, and will request that my restorer re-glue the original ones using the 3M product mentioned above...just hope I can find that exact versions of the epoxy over here in the UK (1838) Does it go by any other name?

Just to let everyone know, it was restored & repaired by an excellent restorer including the shock mounts by Special K, before anyone has a dig at my DIY skills.

Very disappointed as I had this kit shipped from the USA to the UK as they made it sound so good on eBay...gullible me!

Sorry design addicts, I had wished to show you the pictures of the completed chair today, as per my "SACRILEGE" thread I started a few weeks ago...you remember the wrecked chair most said to abandon...


Some day, maybe some day...I will get to show it off here?

Thanks...
...maniqz

I have ordered the PC-7 and hopefully this does the trick!!!!

I will have my restorer remove all of them and re-bond with the PC-7 to avoid any mishaps as I dont trust the Special K epoxy!

Thanks again and will let you know how it turns out.

J

tulipman, that's exactly...
tulipman, that's exactly what i did and still holding up.

670 Lounge Chair Shock Mount and Adhesive Comparison Continued
...Some epoxy adhesives require a minimum adhesive film of 4 mils (.004?), in the case of the PC-7, the thickness of the material will not allow for less. We used a small spring clamp which only applies about 10 pounds of force.
I would think a thicker adhesive layer would not hurt.

Between the latest three adhesives we tested, all withstood forces of over 2000 lbs which will outperform the screws or most likely the veneer. So, due to the ease of use and availability we will be switching our vote to the PC-7 for our polyurethane 670 Eames chair mounts.

As far as the neoprene mounts, this is a different compound and a different method of adhesion is required.

Neoprene is one of the harder materials to bond to. We have done a little research and have found that Charles Eames did extensive studies and R&D as well to accomplish the task of bonding his neoprene shock mounts. Along with the adhesive many steps were taken to get the effective bond such as etching with concentrated nitric acid, coating parts with synthetic resins, and then adhering with modified urea formaldehyde liquid adhesives with heat and pressure, these products melt the neoprene surface to create the bond. However, as the rubber degrades over time and therefore so does the bond.

We also have documents of the different adhesives used over the years and also documents of testing by Mr. Eames that shows failure at 450 to 500 lbs of force on new adhesion, which at the time was considered acceptable for the expected life of the chair. Some of these adhesive products are still available today and may have improved over the years, but better materials and other adhesives have also evolved.

Now the option to maintain your chair either by you with confidence or by professional with remains yours.

(edited by DA - no advertising please!)

selection process
It's pretty simple. I just asked a guy who worked on the 670 chair assembly line at Herman Miller what they used, and he told me about the 3M product. Finding a source for it was a much trickier problem.

Special K is right. the Scotchweld is thinner than a lot of epoxies, but for that reason, I'd expect that it flows better into the pores of the of the materials it's bonding.

Thanks to Special K for going to the trouble of testing the epoxies. Maybe you should glue up some extra samples to test in a few years, so we can see how the adhesives hold up over time.

Special K mount comments and questions
I just received my mounts and adhesive. The mounts are extremely well made, however...I was fully expecting them to be made of neoprene and steel.

My lounge chair is 40 years old, but both mounts broke ten years ago (I weigh 150 lbs.). One mount took a small bit of veneer with it, the other completely took all of the veneer underneath + an additional section. My thinking was that the neoprene had hardened over the years - no longer having any 'give' - and was the reason they broke. I bought two large slabs of neoprene of different thicknesses. Laboriously removed the rubber from one of the mounts down to the raised area where the screws mount - then ran out of steam.

As of now I plan on using these new mounts, but have some overall concerns - regluing the veneer (which glue?); getting the mounts lined up correctly; getting the exact amount of glue on so that there is enough to hold well, but not so much it makes a huge edge around the mounts; being able to get both mounts attached and clamped in five minutes.

Unless I hear different, I'm planning on using a much smaller (Avery) round label over the screw holes. The labels that came with the mounts seem to encroach far too much on the mounting surface - which needs all the surface it can get.

I know this is a totally different topic, but I need to have the leather replaced on the ottoman and am concerned about matching the leather to the rest and finding a shop that can stitch through the thick base material. I have Veteran Co's. automotive book with leather and associated materials should they be a source.

Biba

BibaResto's Special K mount comments and questions
Biba, you can cut down or replace the Avery round sticker if you like but it is unnecessary. This sticker is only there to block the adhesive from going into the screw hole.
We don't know if you purchased the adhesive from us, but if you read up a few threads you will see that we have tested a few adhesives and all three seem to hold up, We do recommend using the PC-7 which also has a longer working time (several hours).
Hopefully you have some reference on at least one side where the mounts were positioned, maybe you can make a template for the position and transfer it to the opposite side. Then position the chair together in a dry run to make sure the components align before adhering the mounts.

You may want to use a thinner 5 minute epoxy to re-attach the veneer and let cure then sand smooth, prior to adhering the mounts.
You may also note that in our adhesive test we used very little clamping pressure applying a thin layer of adhesive to both surfaces then apply pressure together by hand with 10 lbs of force or use a small spring pinch clamp.
You can then wipe excess adhesive off at this time using a small amount of solvent, such as acetone on a rag.
Enjoy!
SKP

mouse trap
Thanks Special K for the helpful info. I did not think to look at specialty vise grips.
I did come up with a solution, however, and hope to try it tonight on one of the two chairs that I have repaired.
I bought 3 foot long 1/4" threadstock, washers and wingnuts. I cut and drilled 2 boards and lined them with some packing foam to protect the chair parts. I created them to fit the long way so that I could leave the shockmount mounted on the upright in order to keep the shockmount curved appropriately. The chair back is sandwiched along with the shockmount and upright. It is very light and seems to hang on the chair well.
I will use light pressure as you mentioned.
Thanks for the help and for the great shockmounts!

btw
by the way-was not clear, but this was the last step in finishing these chairs. What will I labor over next?

I have been recommended Loctite 3090 for bonding the shockmounts
Hi everybody,
I'm just about to bond a new shock mount I have ordered via ebay (from a seller called "depury") from US. It is said to be "Cast polyurethane rubber with inserts", and the seller writes "just purchase any Epoxy 2-component glue at your local hardware store for a few bucks (this is no rocket science...)." I have asked the seller twice, but he would not answer which glue is recommendable.
The shock mounts have rubber at both sides, just as the thread starter describes the ones from Hume. The backside is somewhat rough.
As far as I understand, PC-7 is only recommended for the Special K shock mounts whose back consists of the proper metal plate. I.e. glueing metal to wood.
Asking for suggestions which glue to use for my PU rubber shock mounts, customer service at Henkel (Pattex, Loctite etc.) told me that they normally do not recommend 2K epoxys for glueing rubber to wood, but to use instantaneous glues like Loctite 454 or Loctite 3090 instead.
No I'm a bit unsure which glue I should use - any suggestion is greatly appreciated.
Regards from Germany
Martin

Hi, as there was no answer...
Hi,
as there was no answer neither here nor from the vendor of the shock mounts, I ended up using "UHU endfest300" 2K epoxy (http://www.supermagnete.de/docs/uhu_plus_endfest_300_eng.pdf). I did'nt use any clamps, but I used a halogen lamp to heat up the area - this multiplies tension and shear resistance.
Up to now everything is fine ;)

exactly
I had Herman Miller repair one of my lounge chairs a few years ago and that is exactly how they did the repair, using both epoxy and wood screws.

well, i emailed special...
well, i emailed special k...and they responded quickly with a note that they have a superior shockmount now compared to 2 years ago...they sent me a new pair with free glue because they have lifetime warranty on their products...that's a plus for us customers...

hume modern's reply was vague, they wanted me to send the whole chair when i was only asking for the shockmounts...they should read their customers letters more clearly...they did the same thing to me 2 years ago...quess they can make more money fixing than selling parts.

It's really nice to see a com...
It's really nice to see a company standing behind their products. That speaks to a lot of integrity in their work.

Broken shock mount on my eames lounge chair
I got on this forum because my eames lounge's shock mount broke. I was lucky that the back seat didn't break. I"m currently searching for new shock mounts. It seems like people are happy with special k, but my question is do they have the flex and bouncy feeling that the original shock mounts have? A friend of mine had the same issue and he replaced his from an online vendor, but the shock mounts turned out to be very stiff although they're pretty solid.

Anyone care to share their ex...
Anyone care to share their experience besides the encouraging comment from waffle? Do special k's mounts have the flex of the HM original? Also, if only one mount is broken and others seem ok, is it ill advised to replace just one? Thanks again.

Thanks for the reply, Maniqz.
I'll take uour advice. Mine is an older chair to given to me as a gift. But I wonder if you can do this to your Eames Lounge Chair as shown in the video at about 3:20. The guy is rocking in it like crazy!!! Is it possible only in recent productions???

http://youtu.be/tbF8QYU4LSA

metal does not flex
The special k shockmounts cannot have the same flexion as the originals because the metal is adhered directly to the wood, the bolts go directly into the metal, metal does not flex...

Doesn't it bother you...
Doesn't it bother you to buy from a company who relies on intellectual property theft to generate images for their ebay listings?

Anybody else notice that special k's images are stolen from all over the internet? They've got one of Vitra's images, of a Vitra miniature actually, that they're using to hock their shocks.

Most of their images look suspect, like they've been plucked from websites all over the place, definitely not taken in house. Isn't that against Ebay's policy? And the law?

You're right, I think the...
You're right, I think the issue of misleading and illegal sales tactics actually belongs on the Ebay shenanigans thread.

kin1117 it seems strange to me that you're okay with not receiving product that is pictured. When you shop you're okay with receiving something similar that was advertised using a competitor's images?

Note
I had an issue last year with a piece of Eames furniture that I could not find a part for. It simply did not exist any longer. Within a short time frame, they developed an identical piece (consisting of multiple materials) and checked up with me along the way to make sure that I thought it was as close to the original as it could get. Special K is not trying to make fakes of anything, they simply want us enthusiasts to have access to affordable, well made, proper performing parts for our beloved pieces of design so that they may live on for decades to come.

If anyone finds a issue with their products, challenge them to improve it. They will make every effort to do so. They have an admirable dedication to their customers and we should all applaud them for it. Yes, the original shock mounts were not perfect. What did they do though? Redeveloped the shock to perform better.

Furthermore, yes, some of the images used are from other sites. There is reason for this. Any images of their parts are their images. Most images of details are their images. The only occasion where I found images from other sources are when the images were used only to identify that their product (which they photographed) is meant for use on.... whatever the product may be. If I sell an iPod on ebay, the first image that shows up is a default stock iPod image to represent the product I am selling. That can be taken as incorrect, however, Special K is only using other images to make a connection between what they have manufactured and what they are meant for. When they developed an example from a rare model of mine, they asked for written consent to use an image of my furniture piece with their new product on it.

Not everyone can afford to own every piece of furniture that they sell parts for. Does anyone here really see an issue with using a stock image of an LCW when there is a listing for an LCW part, being clearly advertised as a newly manufactured replacement part? It is to help us.

Lastly, as many may wonder, do I have some kind of deal with Special K to promote them? Absolutely not. I have only had wonderful experiences dealing with them, as they have always been passionate about these wonderful designs and want to help us keep them and use them for generations to come.

David, you beat me to this th...
David, you beat me to this thread and I cannot agree more with what you said. Anyone with a little bit of common sense can tell that this is a personal attack towards a company that stays true to their products and customer service. I really have a hard time understanding where the accusations are coming from. The ebay pictures? I took a better look at them last night and believe they're all legitimate. I didn't see any violation of intellectual property. And the comment about them having no direct experience with the furniture they make parts for? It's shocking to me how anyone could make such bold statement with absolutely no fact supporting it. Anabelle, you sound like you know the folks at Special K so well that you know exactly what they know and what they don't know. Please, this type of attack is uncalled for. We're here to learn from each other and to broaden our perspective. Please let us do that.

And Ebay item # 220798599785...
And Ebay item # 220798599785 uses an image that has been used in several books.

You will find it on page 31 of "Eames: Furniture 1941-1978" by Brigitte Fitoussi and published by Assouline. Page 76 of this book indicates that Herman Miller is the copyright owner of this image, not special k. This image is featured in a number of other books, all with copyright indicated to be Herman Miller.

But kin1117, you're saying using Herman Miller copyrighted material to sell shockmounts in competition with Herman Miller is a legitimate use, so I'll take your word for it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EAMES-MILLER-CHAIR-PARTS-LCW-OR-DCW-BACK-SHOCK-MOUNTS-/220798599785?pt=US_Chairs&var=&hash=item33689f4269

Don't take anabelle too seriously, kin1117.
... edited by DA ...

She pops up here every once in a while to express outrage at trivial facts about MC's competitors -- SpecialK's apparent use of images they don't own, Modernica's sourcing of some components from China, etc. -- and then she goes away. She never posts anything else; it's safe to ignore her.