the reproduction chatter should be moot
I find these "avoid (enter knockoff manufacturer name here) all costs" and other similar threads to be pointless for this website. A true design addict doesn't financially support these knock off companies anyway. So if you bought vintage or "real" to begin with, there wouldn't be a problem. If you look on the radar you will find no products of the sort.

If you can't afford a real barcelona chair (I can't either) then just live with that reality and get something else.

We are DESIGN addicts, not STYLE addicts. Perhaps the people who have been burned by purchasing from shady Chinese companies should find a site devoted to style only to bellyache to.

Design is about the designer, and his/her process. Anything other than the original has lost this element of soul and history and is style only. Design is forever. Style changes, dies, resurrects and dies again. Good design never leaves and is never in bad taste.

Don't make this into a cost/the Eames' original intent discussion. Charles and Ray are gone, so the argument is pointless. Anything with a significant history is liable to become collectible, and therefore, expensive. This isn't unique to MCM furniture. It's just the way it is, regardless of the intent.

There I said it. So if you got burned by Captain Shady's Modern Furniture Depot, there is probably a more relevant place to complain about it than here. Perhaps a law office...

Beloved...you must be Gwen...
Beloved...you must be Gwen Stefani?

Barry
It might be, but they wont. There is too much risk involved in bringing back something that's not proven to make money. Thats the same reason why Herman Miller/Knoll/Fritz et al. avoid it (especially in this economy) You may believe (and who knows-you could be right) that these products would sell, but unless people know that for sure, they're not going to invest the money, infrastructure, tooling, advertising to do it.

Even the most progressive of knock-off companies- Modernica - has introduced precious few pieces that are not already on the market. (The Grasshopper, the Eames folding tables, and the ThinEdge bed) Most knock-off companies just lack the vision/risk taking to do it - they are like parrots, all they can do is spit back what is fed to them. (Take a look at the disasters that happened when Modernica ventured out on it's own: The Prince Charles Chair and the Split Rail Daybed)

After reading the latest postings
in the other Repro threads, I've come to the conclusion that (many of) the Chinese knockoffs factories are simply copy cats who don't understand the concept of producing an exclusive knockoff that scores of people would buy.

In terms of producing stuff that is no longer available from their legal sources, it's clear that these 'businessmen' are not smart enough to understand the potential market. Instead, they are counterfiters.

And, by the way, the Chinese better leave all wingdings and widgets alone.

Barry
So you'll gladly buy a "Chinese" knock-off clock, but not a Chinese widget? You make no sense... Unless, of course, you are joking.

If not, then go declare war on "the Chinese".

Have fun with that.

By the way, most US currency (i.e. credit) comes from "China".

Luc...aren't some of the changes
made by Herman Miller, Knoll and, Fritz Hansen over the years improvements and/or refinments?

I have read that the updated Barcelona chair is more graceful and more in keeping to what Mies originally had in mind, but couldn't achieve that due to the available metalworking at the time.

I've also read that Herman Miller worked with Ray Eames right before her death on changing the plastic fiberglass material on the plastic chairs and she was involved with the new material.

I doubt any of these designers lived in a vacuum and when better technology made it possible to make changes, they would've been excited about it. Similarly, most designers would be pleased as punch to replace any materials that were environmentally unsafe or unsound (the latex foam Herman Miller and Knoll used, for example).

I don't think any of these companies have been dishonest in regard to maintaining the best most up-to-date manufacturing methods for producing furniture that continues to sell to new generations.

Remember, though, what Eva Zeisel said about her patterned "Tomorrow's Classic" dinnerware; 'When in doubt, buy white'..which translates to "If in doubt about new methods of manufacturing classic furniture, buy vintage originals"!

More annoyance and ignorance
Yeah, I did jump in unbidden. Thought it was an open forum.

I fully agree that Modernica's original designs suck. My point on the ESU was that Modernica had already been producing it for some time before HM contracted them. One day, it's a knockoff, the next it's authentic. No change in manufacturer, materials, manufacturing process... just the addition of the label. I'm not saying that the Modernica piece was then or is now authentic; just that I don't think the addition of the HM badge and the blessing of Mr. Demetrios makes it so.

And yes, Jackie Nelson does have the legal right to license the Nelson name. But let's be honest... she's not the designer, and Vitra wasn't the producer in George's lifetime.

I also take issue with Vitra's claim of faithfulness to the originals. None of the Vitra clocks is produced with the original woods (birch and walnut). The colors are significantly skewed from the originals. The second hands are arbitrarily assigned to certain models and not to others. I was told apocryphally that it depends on whether or not the original in Fehlbaum's collection retains its second hand.

So what's the litmus test for authenticity? Vitra's Eames plastic chairs are authorized by the Eames estate, and distributed by Herman Miller... but what an awful piece of crap. I wouldn't have one in my house if it were given to me. In my opinion (and that's all it is) the Modernica knockoff with the correct geometry and real fiberglass if far more authentic.

Open Forum
My point wasnt about the forum being open or not, it was about the manner in which you jumped in - guns blazing and opinions crisply black and white. The topic is more complex.

To say that Modernica makes "authentic" fiberglass chairs is to totally ignore HOW the Eames worked. They were constantly making improvements to their products, and I have no doubt that they would have reached the decision to use a different plastic material (as they did in the EA 127 chair) for the chair shells instead of fiberglass.

I have never heard that Modernica was making the cases before HM contracted them...it's counterintuitive that HM would reach out to a knock-off company for legit construction. But either way - while under contract with Herman Miller Modernica had to produce the pieces in strict configurations, and not modify any of the materials. What they did before and after is irrelevant - during that time period they made legit pieces.

And, for the record, George didnt design the clocks himself. People on his staff did.

Modernica, fiberglass...
Modernica was indeed producing the knockoff ESU for quite some time before HM contracted them. In fact, I bought the Modernica version a few years before the reintroduction, because frankly, they were about the only ones producing them.

Quite surprisingly, Modernica made both HM tagged, and Modernica tagged pieces simultaneously. That's sort of the crux of my legit v. non-legit argument. The label was pretty much the only difference at that point. I'm not sure how they managed that politically, but I do know that when I talked to Eames Demetrios in 2000, he was not at all happy with the HM / Modernica relationship. Perhaps the simultaneous production was the cause of it. I didn't press him on it, and it was right around that time that the relationship was severed.

Luc,

First I do apologize for my rather abrupt entry into the conversation. I meant no offense. Just wanted to add my 2 cents to a spirited debate.

You are correct about HM enforcing stricter construction guidelines on Modernica. Before the partnership, it was pretty much a custom shop. You ordered a size, and picked out every single panel and option. Crazy way to manufacture anything.

Re. the fiberglass chairs. Yes, the Eames' might have eventually altered the materials, but 21 years after Ray's death, it's all hypothetical. However, we can be pretty darn certain that the Eames' would NOT have tried to make the polypropylene emulate its fiberglass predecessor, as Vitra has done with the surface texture. One thing that the they were fanatical about was allowing materials express their own nature. Also, the example of using plastic for the EA127 is a bit specious. It wasn't a replacement for the DCM; just an additional model in the line. The Vitra armshell is meant to be the current incarnation of the original DAR.

Re. the clocks, yes, Irving Harper claims the design duty for most of them. But with the exception of some really awful post-modernist clocks that Howard Miller produced, none of them actually had George's name on them anyway (and IMHO, he really shouldn't have... dreadful things). That said, if you own the consultancy, it's generally your name that gets attached to the product.

an introduction
LRF et. al.,

I fully understand why you'd defer to Luc. I can see that he's quite knowledgeable, and I have no history in this forum. So let me digress a bit to introduce myself.

I've lived the majority of my life within 5 miles of both Herman Miller and Howard Miller, and consequently, grew up surrounded by the furniture, clocks, and Herman/Howard Miller employees. I've been collecting for about 20 years. I've also done a fair amount of dealing, although I've mostly weaned myself from that addiction. (Nothing like 200 fiberglass chairs showing up in the basement to test a wife's patience.) Dealing doesn't automatically make one an expert, but it forces you to continually discuss and discover the details and variances of the products. It also means that you get to own / touch / study hundreds of original examples.

Many my friends, family members and professional colleagues have worked for, or continue to work for Herman Miller. Most of them are design professionals, and a few of them worked directly with George Nelson. I am an industrial designer, and have personally done work for Herman Miller, as well as a few of their suppliers, albeit many years after Nelson's tenure. It occasionally affords me an inside look at Herman Miller product, history, sourcing, etc.

Anyway... I hope that my ham-fisted intrusion into the Forum is taken in good spirit, and look forward to further spirited discussion.

yes poach Welcome!
It always nice to have a new knowledgeable voice contribute to these open forums. If you read some of the past threads of various topics, you will see that sometimes the discussions stay pretty peaceful and civil and sometimes they can get a bit testy and riled up. It just seems to be nature of this forum.
I appreciate the insight you lend and agree with much you have said. Such as your observations on Modernica. In my opinion, Modernica gets kind of a undeserving bad rep a lot of times on here. They have gone a bit off their mark in the last several years and I have not cared too much for their original designs either, but they were among the first to do some quality reproductions. A friend of mine went to the Noguchi museum in NY years ago and when no one was looking, he turned the Child's table over and guess what?.. it was a Modernica repro. I had the pleasure of meeting Frank Novak, the founder of Modernica about 10 years ago. He is a Nebraska native like myself and his parents ran an antique store in Omaha. I was in LA and traded him 4 Eames armshells and a Nelson clock for a Nelson clock I didn't have. He gave me and a friend a nice tour of his warehouse full of vintage modern pieces and of his factory where the reproductions were made. He was very likable and knowledgeable. I think a lot of his early reproductions and many of his current ones are just as good or better than much of the other ones out there by other companies.
I also agree totally with you about the Vitra Nelson clocks. For what you pay for them, they are not very well made and do vary a lot from the originals. I have been collecting Nelson clocks for over 20 years and have been able to compare just about every Vitra repro to a vintage original and there are so many little things that Vitra could have taken the extra step and done better. I don't know how many times I been in a DWR or other such stores and have seen a Vitra clock falling apart as it hangs on the wall. Vitra was not the first to do Nelson clock reproductions either. There was a guy out of Chino, Ca (Advance Interiors) in 1997 who was doing about 4 different Nelson clocks and they were just as good or better than Vitra's. He was also doing the Marshmallow sofa and a few Eames chairs.
Anyhow, this has turned into a rather long contribution to this thread, when basically I just wanted to say welcome to this forum and thank you for lending your knowledge. It is great to have such a place where people like you and Luc can offer your insight and opinions. I have learned much from all of you and enjoy this forum. Hope you will too.

I take umbrage at the opinion...
I take umbrage at the opinion that LuciferSam is the Design Addict forum expert on Herman Miller/Vitra. I know this sounds a little bizarre but I am actually the reincarnation of Charles Eames, and as such feel much more qualified on the subject, especially since it was me that came up with the designs in the first place!! And BTW, I never really liked that stupid elephant I designed for rug rats.

Clock base
Probably made it wider for stability............

Interesting....
(....Re. the clocks, yes, Irving Harper claims the design duty for most of them. But with the exception of some really awful post-modernist clocks that Howard Miller produced, none of them actually had George's name on them anyway (and IMHO, he really shouldn't have... dreadful things). That said, if you own the consultancy, it's generally your name that gets attached to the product.
.....)

Regarding the clocks, the George Nelson catalog published by Vitra that I tried to get some of you excited about - without any luck - has all of the clocks listed and gives full credit for who actually designed them....and they were not all Irving Harper.

The calog is now available in the US....I've got mine.

poach
That has been touched on in the thread below.

Feel free to jump in there!
http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm//...

Eames Storage Units
Hello - I'm going to jump in here, and a little late at that but I wanted to add something that I hope is taken as helpful.
To clear up a few things on the ESUs: I was the project manager at Herman Miller for the Home during the time that Modernica was contracted to produce ESUs for HMH. Modernica had become a HMH retailer early on and the thought was to convert them to 'authorized' Herman Miller products. They had great enthusiasm for the product. The story is long and sorted but I wanted to address the comment 'one day a knock-off, the next it's authentic. No change in the manufacturer, materials, manufacturing process' just the addition of the label.' That statement is totally untrue. A team from Herman Miller, including myself, mechanical, packaging, and quality engineers, and Eames Demetrios worked long and hard with Modernica to bring their manufacturing, materials and processes up to HM standards. We limited the options to the 5 original configurations in two colorways. The argument of authentic or not can go on and on with numerous opinions, but if the designer, his/her heirs, or foundation have not authorized 'blessed' the product and don't receive royalties chances are it is not Authentic. One of the reasons the Herman Miller / Modernica relationship ended was Modernica's continuation of producing and selling knock-offs. Also, as a side note when Herman Miller brings back a design that they were the original manufacturer of it is considered a 're-introduction' and not a reproduction.

bubbles
The bubble light situation was very similar to the ESUs. HMH ? was purchasing them from Modernica after assisting the manufacturer (who is not Modernica ? see below) with adjusting the formula to correct issues with cracking during shipping in really cold and really hot conditions, gaving them a bit more elasticity. HMH engineering also helped with the packaging updates. The Bubbles were discontinued by HMH at the time the relationship ended with Modernica. It was another attempt to try to get Modernica to be legitimate.

There was a question above about the differences seen in some of the other bubble like materials used ? a big part of that is the formula of the web spray and the thickness of the application. There is even a difference between current bubbles compared to when Howard Miller was producing them. The updates in the formula also help them stay white longer than the old ones too ? of course not as many people smoke around the dining room table as in the old day either.

Modernica is very good at ?seeking? out sources and marketing. And actually even though Modernica claims to be the ?manufacturer? of these lights, someone else bought the original frames / fixtures and formula from Howard Miller and had tucked them away. Modernica found this person and convinced them to manufacture the lights only for Modernica, but this other person maintains ownership. The rub with the lights is that while they are ?real? in the fact that they are the original tooling and such ? they are not truly official or authorized. And just to be clear, because again I know everyone has their own definition of these circumstances and I?m not looking to argue ? to me official and authorized is approved by the designer, their foundation and or family. There is no royalty paid to George Nelson?s family for any of the Bubbles currently being sold.

One last thing - I don?t know this for sure as I?ve not done a ton of research on all the designs that were ever thought of by George and his associates but there seems to be some options available now that Modernica takes creative license on to expanded designs on their own and claim them as Nelson designs. This is also true for the ESUs and or course the Shell chairs ? While I think updates are good in general and some very necessary in today?s environment, I just have got to think Charles must be rolling in his life-ever-after with that Prince Charles concoction. Again, must give Modernica credit for some shrewd marketing getting the name Charles associated with the product and not violating the trade rights of Herman Miller.

Thanks for the history,...
Thanks for the history, Friend. Does this mean that the Modernica bubbles are still being produced here in West Michigan?

There was a gentleman who continued producing the lamps for many years after Howard Miller ended production. It was my understanding that he'd bought the original equipment from Howard Miller. He worked out of a space in the defunct Holland, MI Chris Craft plant, and marketed the lamps under the name Gossamer Lighting. I own one of the Gossamer lamps from that era.

In recent years, the equipment has been used locally for some non-Nelson bubble lamps for a local business, as well as a few artist's sculptures. For that reason I was skeptical when Modernica advertised that their lamps were produced on the original equipment. However, I can see that this would fit your explanation that the equipment still belongs to the same man who originally bought it from Howard Miller. True?