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07-Mar-10 |
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saarinen base markings
I found what I believe to be a saarinen stool. It was at an antique store, but the price was a bit steep so I didn't pick it up. It appeared to be enameled metal (not sure if it is aluminum). There are some numbers stamped into the metal, but no label or other indicator.
Does anyone have any idea of what type of stampings should be in the metal?
I assume this will be a little more complex, depending on who/when it was mfg'd.
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posted by
ngised
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07-Mar-10 |
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
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07-Mar-10 |
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I don't know ....
....about that. I've got eight vintage Knoll Tulip chairs, six w/o arms and two with. They were bought in the mid to late '70s at Knoll in Frankurt, Germany. The only marking on the chairs, is "Knoll International" stamped/embossed on the bottom metal outer ring. "BR 51" is nowhere to be found.
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posted by
Bario Mellini
edited on 07-Mar-10 10:10 PM [edit]
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07-Mar-10 |
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`
My old Knolll tulip stool has a BR51 stamped into the metal, also. I've never noticed before. Any ideas as to why?
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posted by
Mark
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08-Mar-10 |
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chair vs. stool
Is it possible the chairs and the stools have different markings?
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posted by
ngised
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08-Mar-10 |
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
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08-Mar-10 |
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That link ...
... refers to in part to "BR51 stamp on base." The picture shows the stamp, but doesn't really show where it's stamped on the Tulip chair base, as it was so well shown on the Tulip stool, stamped on the bottom of the base.
Is it supposed to be stamped on that portion of the base just under the cushion? If yes, then let's have a picture showing that. Because right now there's nothing to see!
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posted by
Bario Mellini
edited on 08-Mar-10 10:09 PM [edit]
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08-Mar-10 |
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
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08-Mar-10 |
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Bario, don't worry I'm sure your chairs are legit.....
Euro production was likely subcontracted to European factory that did not use the same cast, or had a different system for labeling their parts.
Also, I don't know exactly when, but the BR 51 disappeared on later chairs.
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
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09-Mar-10 |
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Another note.
An aluminum base will have a slight chalky residue that forms on the
surface. I don't believe under the base was ever factory powder coated.
If it is painted underneath it may have been spray-bombed at some point.
(an owner DIY repair and not such a good thing)
My two tulips have BR 50 instead of BR 51. They both have the knoll sticker
on the seats between the velcro strips. Minty velcro so they must be new
though i bough them used.
My junk tulip, found on the street, has a dozen numbers and dashes followed
by ALCOA stamped in the bottom aluminum base. No sign of velcro residue.
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posted by
rockland
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09-Mar-10 |
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Alcoa
I have an older Tulip armchair (non-swivel, vertical label) that has just Alcoa stamped on the bottom of the base.
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posted by
woodywood (USA)
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09-Mar-10 |
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BR 50 and BR 51
One is swivel, the other is stationary, though I can't remember which is which.
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
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09-Mar-10 |
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posted by
rockland
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09-Mar-10 |
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Purchased five
Thanks to all. I purchased all five. They are marked BR51 and swivel. Definitely aluminum. I paid less than $100 for each, so I am not too concerned if they are knock offs or not.
I did notice one is markedly different:
1. The bottom edge is straight, not tapered as the others are;
2. The seat cushion does not have "holes" that you can feel through the bottom fabric, whereas the other four do.
3. The top of the stem is slightly wider that the rest, by approximately .5".
It would be interesting to try to line up a history of the chairs and explore the differences in the mfg. process.
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posted by
ngised
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10-Mar-10 |
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We've got dozens of tulip stools w/o a BR stamp on them
At work, we've got scores of these stools (some of which still have the Knoll labels) but they don't have the BR stamps on the bases. I'm sure that casting must have been discontinued at some time. I'm not sure when these were acquired...either in the late 60s or early 70s. They have all been reupholstered at sometime in the past. The bases are black and the undersides of the bases are black as well. The swivel/mounting mech is consistent with all of the other Knoll tulip bases I've seen.
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posted by
Fungus Mungus (USA)
edited on 10-Mar-10 05:14 PM [edit]
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10-Mar-10 |
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Now that I think about it
"Knoll Associates" is usually with the BR markings. By the time the company switched to "Knoll International", they must have switched to newer casts.
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
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10-Mar-10 |
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posted by
Bario Mellini
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10-Mar-10 |
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Established as a division of Knoll Associates, the labels did not change until 1969.
Yes, it's true Knoll International was formed in 1951, but it was formed as the international sales division of Knoll Associates.
Knoll Associates officially changed their name to Knoll International in 1969, after they purchased the European based Gavina Company.
I'll dig into my reference books for an explanation, back in 5 minutes.
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
edited on 10-Mar-10 08:26 PM [edit]
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10-Mar-10 |
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Knoll Associates, Knoll International, Knoll Textiles
The story of the 3 Knolls (4 if you count Knoll Studio) can be found in the book Knoll Furniture, by Steven and Linda Rouland.
"Knoll International was formed in 1951 as a result of a United States State Department request to make furniture for American perosnnel stationed overseas.... A textile divition, called Knoll Textiles, was formed because Florence was not satisfied with available fabrics....
Hans died in a car accident in 1955 at the age of 41.... Florence Knoll was now the president of Knoll Associates, Knoll Textiles, and Knoll International. She continued to oversee the company's growth and development."
All see the link below:
"In 1969, the firm became Knoll International."
http://www.idsa.org/absolutenm/templates/?a=286
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
edited on 10-Mar-10 08:22 PM [edit]
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10-Mar-10 |
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Dear the_beloved.
The Knoll link says that Knoll International was "established" in 1951. Your IDSA link says that the firm became Knoll International in 1969. So who are you going to believe? Why Knoll of course, as far as I'm concerned!
But regardless. Are you also still saying that "Knoll Associates" chairs are usually made with the BR markings. But by the time the company switched to "Knoll International," they must have switched to newer casts.
So IAW you, Tulip chairs and stools manufactured after 1969 should not carry the BR markings! But they do IAW some of the posts.
Every one of us posters will eat crow now and then. I think that it's now your turn!
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posted by
Bario Mellini
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10-Mar-10 |
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posted by
the_beloved (US/CAN)
edited on 10-Mar-10 11:56 PM [edit]
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10-Mar-10 |
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Interesting...
It is obvious from all of the postings that, depending on the period and/or location, the chairs/stools can have a multitude of markings. In fact, the new chairs offered by Knoll (according to the website) appear to have even more markings.
You mention the bases are black. For some reason, I thought they would all be aluminum underneath. It would be interesting if you could post a picture and dimensions. We know they made three colors: white, black, and putty (for a known period).
I will post the following dimensions later this evening:
Height of the tulip base (excluding the cushion);
Diameter of the base;
Diamter of the neck (where the base abutts the seat);
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posted by
ngised
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11-Mar-10 |
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Fungus Mungus markings
Thank you for posting the picture. I have noticed they all have the same mechanism, specifically:
There is one hole through which a rod is placed, held in place by a o-ring or washer. All of my stools also have this.
I am very interested in the markings that are on the base. What do they say (I can't quite make it out).
Additionally, do you know if any of the stools/chairs are marked on the rim?
My stools all have a "lip" on the base.
My dimensions:
Height: from the bottom of the base to the top of the tulip is 13.5"
Circumference of the base: 42.5"
Circumference of the top of the tulip (where the base meets the seat bottom): 18.5"
My guess is that there will variation, depending on where/when the stools were mfg'd.
If you have the label present, and it has a date, it would be great to see the date and dimensions.
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posted by
ngised
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29-Nov-10 |
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Is this one authentic?
Im pretty familiar with the br51/br50 and got two older stools with that, i recently purchased this tulip chair from a couple that came from france, they said that it was knoll and they purchased it there.
when i bought it at the tim didnt know the way to look for authenticity.
just know the right shapes of the seat which many knock offs dont get right.
anyway let me know what you think.... heres some pics
(there is a knoll sticker on it but that doesnt say much, there is also a stamp dated 1978 and a control1 marking)
also i replaced the original circle* velcro strips
thanks!!
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posted by
MadHaus
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29-Nov-10 |
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My stool
indeed is marked BR51. It is bizarre that Knoll didn't mark these pieces since Burke and other companies started making imitations almost immediately.....
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posted by
barrympls (USA)
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29-Nov-10 |
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isnt that so odd?
it is french? would there be a difference
control is also spelt controle* i just noticed
Maybe it was because over there the modern competition didn't start happening till these days with vitra and the many other companies that produce iconic rip offs
But i have been studying the chair and everything about it looks right, minus the fact there are no bottom markings....
but all the shaping and lighting it has a right.
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posted by
MadHaus
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29-Nov-10 |
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(correction)
vitra is not an rip off company**
they are authentic, but there are many many look a-likes these days.
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posted by
MadHaus
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