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Date of Niels O. Moeller stamps

Category
Interior design
- 25 Jun 2016 -
26 posts / 0 new
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Interior design

Can anyone let me know the date of Niels O. Moller 78 model dining chairs with the following stamps, as this will tell me whether they are likely to be Brazilian Rosewood (up to 1969) or East Indian/ Indonesian (1970 onwards).


The two stamps say:

JL MOLLER MODELS/ MADE IN DENMARK

and

FURNITURE MAKERS DANISH CONTROL


Many thanks in advance for your help.


Date of Niels O. Moeller stamps
Designer(s)
Country
United Kingdom
Functions
chairs & stools
Periods
1960 - 1969

Comments

- 25 Jun 2016

That is a post about 1971 Møller stamp. The earlier mark (roughly during the 1960s) is a medallion, and sometimes a JLM ink stamp also. And even earlier than that (roughtly during the 1950s) Møller pieces tended not to be marked at all.

I don't know if this will actually tell you whether the Rosewood is Brazilian or East Indian though. Where did you see that information?

- 26 Jun 2016

I emailed pictures of furniture and stamps yesterday to a specialist dealer who tells me the chairs are East Indian Rosewood - although he didn't say on what basis he believed this to be the case. I can make further enquiries with him about this.

- 26 Jun 2016

I don't think I would categorically believe that all timber agents in Denmark stopped importing Briazilian rosewood in 1970. In 1992 Brazilian rosewood was banned, and even after that, I doubt I would believe that absolutely every timber importer stopped importation. There is, unfortunately, a lot of demand for Brazilian rosewood for making musical instruments, even at extraordinarily high prices. I would believe that Brazilian rosewood get expensive enough to that Møller stopped using it long before 1992, just because of the cost.. That website has some interesting information that I tend to believe is reliable, though.

You may be able to determine whether you have East Indian rosewood yourself by looking at the density of the pores, perhaps at the tops of the legs:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/distinguishing-brazilian-rose...

- 28 Jun 2016

Thanks leif that's very helpful. I have also heard now that the 'black lines' in Brazilian Rosewood are thicker. I am now told also by a dealer that the chairs are a mix of Rosewoods - Brazilian and Indonesian - so this is even more intriguing!

- 29 Jun 2016

I've never heard of Indonesian Rosewood, so, if that is not a typo, then I would be suspicious of this dealer's information. I somehow doubt that Møller would use different rosewoods such that a dealer would be able to tell the difference in casual photos. Rosewoods are famous for their varied appearance such that it can occasionally be hard to tell which rosewood board is which. I think that Møller would have guaranteed a certain uniformity in a chair, so that even if it were composed of different species it would be nearly impossible to tell.

- 29 Jun 2016

I believe Indonesian Rosewood is also known as East Indian, although this may be my misunderstanding. The dealer was local and came to look at the chairs in person. He says he has been to the Moller factory in Denmark and that they would just make use of the pieces available.

- 15 Jul 2017

leif ericson: I need a help. I bought moller 78 rosewood chairs from 1stdibs. And it described chairs are from 1960-1969. And It has that two stamp on it. What should I do? Because I wanted to have early production of moller chairs and that is why I bought it from 1stdibs. I thought the website is professional and reliable. Any advice please? Thank you

- 15 Jul 2017

Return them to the seller. They are from the early 1970s onwards. Møller model 78 was designed in 1962, when Møller was using metal medallions.

- 15 Jul 2017

Møller was pretty good about marking in the 60s, but in case you find one with only the black metal Danish Furnituremakers Control medallion that would indicate 1960s manufacture as well.

If you find some others you are welcome to ask. I just did a quick search and there are ones out there. Most sellers seem not to show the markings, which would be the quickest way to distinguish them.

The execution of Møller chairs changed a bit in the 70s. It can be hard to see, especiallly in photos, but if you have earlier production chairs sitting next to later production and study them for differences, you will see them. Generally the later ones are thicker and blockier.

- 15 Jul 2017

Thank you for the clear explanation on moller chairs. I contacted 1stdibs and dealer. I am waiting for their response. I already paid duties and taxes. I am not sure I need to pay for the shipping fee to the dealer. It sucks! Takes too much time...

- 27 Jul 2017

When describing a listing, if a date is provided without clear qualifiers, it usually pertains to the date it was designed. Your Moller chairs were designed in the 60's. I would not expect most dealers to be able to determine when a particular example of that design was made, based upon stamp/label design. The ones who know (and are interested in) that type of stuff on this site are definitely in the extreme minority.

On the wood finish front, if you pay top dollar on 1stDibs, the expectation should be for wood that does not require any reconditioning. From the limited photos that I see of your chairs however, it doesn't appear to be that tough an effort to improve the appearance.

- 28 Jul 2017

For what it's worth, I don't know what refinishers told you that was beyond fixing. That's a load of tosh. They'll be fine.

But yeah, I would not expect to pay 1stDibs prices and receive that. I've heard that 1stDibs are generally quite good about returns even if the dealer is reluctant. If you're really unhappy perhaps you can renegotiate a price after getting a quote for refinishing?

- 29 Jul 2017

For a 1StDibs store this is well below 'excellent condition.'

Given all the curves and the nooks and crannies in this design, it will be a nightmare to strip. And the rosewood appears to be faded, so any spot that gets sanded is going to darken a lot and then they will need to be sanded everywhere to get the color uniform. It is probably possible to re-do them with the leather on, but that just makes everything that much harder too, so it might be easier to remove the seats too.

So there is nothing special to the job, it is just one of those jobs where just a few spots have problems, but everything will need to be re-done just to address those spots.

- 29 Jul 2017

Thank you all for the comments.

I am upset because I really like miller 78 chairs and saved money for the 1960-1969 moller rosewood chairs. I know the difference is minimal but I wanted to put money on the best(more Valuable). I asked many designer and dealers before buy moller chairs and I found out that 1960-1969 moller 78s are more valuable than later production one because they have slimmer frames and use brazilian rosewood.

One sad thing is that if I did not care about the years of production, I could have got it from local dealer here with much better price or get it from different dealer who was willing to ship it for me.

I just imagined it is safer for me to get it from 1stdibs than other dealers because I am not expert on mid century furniture.

I wish I knew this forum before.

I don't know much about refinishing so I don't know the this is tough to fix or not. However, I showed the chairs to many refinishers and most of them asked for $250. And they need to bring the chairs to upholster to remove the leather and put back when work is done. No one was willing to work the chairs with leather on. They warned me if leather gets ripped or stained, they will not take a responsible on it.

I understand mid century furniture cannot be look new because they produced in 1960s and I am fine with it. I have few other mid century furnitures I bought and this is the worst condition furniture from all. But I really worked hard to save money for the best chairs and got it from 1stdibs for the 1st time. ( I am not rich) But it looks not excellent condition at all(dealer stated that chairs are in excellent condition) And they are not produced in years of 1960-1969. In 1stdibs, some dealers put chairs are in early production, and some put 1971-1979.

I hope I can refund the chairs to seller. I am still waiting for the response from 1stdibs. I was waiting for 2 weeks now. I am in so much stress because of this. I got it from Europe so I don't know how they will correct duties and shipping/return fee.

Thank you again for all your comment, advise and help!

It really helps me a lot in many ways.

- 29 Jul 2017

Yeah, I think It'd be fairly crushed in your position too. Hope you hear back from 1stDibs soon.

In the mean time, I'd still love to see more pictures of them! They're beauitful chairs regardless of date.

- 01 Aug 2017

Hello guys,

I opened other boxes today. 1stdibs told me not to open other boxes until they confirm the chairs are in 1960s.

The seller included 3 teak chairs. I realized the bottom finish was different compare to others. And I found out that they are teak!

This dealer is terrible. She lied about the condition of chairs and lied about the type of wood! I got 8 rosewood chairs, not TEAK!

I am very upset...

- 01 Aug 2017

Yongyou, assuming that what you've reported is true and this is all not part of some personal vendetta intended to harm the reputation of this vendor, then, yeah, I'd be upset too. For anyone in the business for as long as this dealer has been to misrepresent these chairs as you claim she has is, quite simply, unforgivable.

I look forward to reading that this has been resolved amicably

- 03 Aug 2017

Hello everyone,

I made a mistake on stamp. The stamp on my chairs are different than here. They are similar but little different. Sorry for the confusion. Moller company confirmed the stamp on chairs are from 1960-1969. I have to admit that it was my mistake to not look the stamp closely. It is my bad to blame 1stdibs and seller without checking it first.

However, leif ericson(who is experts on moller furniture) and 1stdibs confirmed that seller included 3 teak chairs as stated that 8 chairs are all rosewood.

I did not get money back yet. And not sure about return shipping fee(seller asked me to pay return shipping fee but 1stdibs will talk seller regarding shipping fee). And I am not sure how I can get duties ( paid approx. $1000) I paid.

But 1stdibs employee is very helpful. They acknowledged the issue and they are talking to seller for me to arrange the return. They also answered my stamp questions. leif ericson already figured out and helped me before 1stdibs but it was nice to hear from them as well.

Thank you guys for the interests and your support!

I will keep update the process.

- 08 Aug 2017

Going back to Brazilain/Indian rosewood, I have had Moller chairs that have been constructed with a mix of the two timbers.

- 09 Aug 2017

Keep at them is all I will say, if you want to return them then ask to initiate that process.

But I think as others have said, it's a funny business complaining publicly like this, so I would keep in regular contact with 1stDibs and not post it all here.

- 10 Aug 2017

Well, the 3 are teak. That is an egregious, monstrous failure for the seller to make. I am sure the seller does not want to admit it because there is a huge amount of cost involved in accepting your return. There is all the money you spent, then shipping both ways, and your customs duty. Considering the product you received, I don't see how the seller can realistically expect you to pay a penny. Therefore, the approach is to insist you pay all of it.

There are laboratories in the world that specialize in identifying wood. Those 3 are teak, but it doesn't have to be a "he said, she said" issue. Scientific proof can be had. I would however first insist that the seller agree _in writing_ to take it all back, refund all the money, and reimburse you for the scientific testing.

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